Cheap & silent mini PC for Bitcoin node & blockchain explorer? - page 3.

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 15, 2024, 05:26:53 AM

I've seen some very good offers (considering the price and specs) for mini-PCs from Wish or similar sites, but I'd never dare use them because I don't trust the hardware. What if it somehow shares my data by "calling home"? It's not worth the risk.

You could say the same thing for laptops and desktop computers, there is no difference at all.
All you can do is installing open source bios on supported machines and than installing fresh Linux OS.

Quote from: ABCbits on August 15, 2024, 05:15:17 AM

Which unfixable bugs you're talking about? I did quick search and only found about "Sinkclose" which affect AMD CPU and crashing on recent Intel CPU.

I can't find the source article for AMD now, but I am sure g00gle knows better than me. Tongue

I think that all Intel 13th and 14th Gen CPUs are crashing because of this bug with permanent damage.
We need more alternative for AMD and Intel, maybe RISC-V or something else.

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Quote from: DaveF on August 16, 2024, 09:28:32 AM

So if you are worried about the BIOS / UEFI you are going to have to buy from one of the well known bigger OEMs. Which takes off the the 1st word in the subject of this topic. Cheap.

Hence my preference for old laptops Wink

I'm still looking for a "new" one

Quote from: ABCbits on August 15, 2024, 05:15:17 AM

i also find out his mini PC use very obscure SSD brand. That SSD seems to use QLC which become very slow on high write activity and also slow down whole system.

Confirmed! This is a problem with HDDs and SSDs. After a certain threshold, most budget disks become very slow. The HDD slowness is of course several orders of magnitude worse than the SSD slowness, but it's still very noticeable even on the SSD. When writing a lot, cheap SSDs seem unable to multitask and read a few bytes in between. For most uses that's not a problem, but it may be annoying if you also want to be able to use the system during large writes (such as the IBD).

DaveF

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 16, 2024, 03:05:04 AM

Maybe LoyceV and RickDeckard worry about malicious stuff on hardware level or persistent malware which "live" on BIOS/UEFI.

The catch with that being most of these mini PC makers *don't* make their boards. They are buying them from someone else. I own a few from a couple of brands and know people and have setup from others many others. The boards are all the same. Not close....the same. Looking at some of the places you can buy the bare board online they are all close enough to be coming from the same manufacturer.

So if you are worried about the BIOS / UEFI you are going to have to buy from one of the well known bigger OEMs. Which takes off the the 1st word in the subject of this topic. Cheap.

-Dave

ABCbits

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Quote from: DaveF on August 15, 2024, 09:10:04 AM

I have several of these PCs from Beelink and others. Some have drives from what I would call low price tier 2 makers and others have generic no name ones. All are QLC except for one.
RAM has been the same. Never a Crucial or Corsair but still a name I have heard of (i.e. TEAMGROUP)

But, when you are getting a complete mini PC for under $200 (usually under $175) what do you really expect.

I see, i'll have to pay attention if i ever plan to buy one. And regarding to this thread topic, QLC would slow down node IBD or indexing either by Electrum server/block explorer once it's cache fully used.

Quote from: DaveF on August 15, 2024, 09:10:04 AM

Quote from: RickDeckard on August 15, 2024, 08:33:47 AM

I'm also very apprehensive of buying hardware of that nature from places like AliExpress, Gearbest and other alike. The price is most often than not very enticing but I can't for sure say that they are not compromised (no free lunches after all). Quite recently I have been fancying the idea of just gather up some parts and build it myself just for the joy of it, but at the moment I don't really have the time for it, so it's just a project that is currently sitting in the shelf...

Where are you based? You can get them cheap at Amazon and wipe the drive and re-install.

-Dave

Maybe LoyceV and RickDeckard worry about malicious stuff on hardware level or persistent malware which "live" on BIOS/UEFI.

DaveF

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 15, 2024, 05:15:17 AM

To those who own mini PC (especially cheap ones or from unpopular brand), have you ever check details of RAM and SSD included by the brand? Some time ago, i briefly helped my friend who have lag problem on his mini PC. Aside from removing some bloatware, i also find out his mini PC use very obscure SSD brand. That SSD seems to use QLC which become very slow on high write activity and also slow down whole system.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 14, 2024, 11:08:19 AM

--snip--
I don't know if you heard about recent unfixable bugs found both in Intel and AMD processors, so better check if your processors are affected by this.

Which unfixable bugs you're talking about? I did quick search and only found about "Sinkclose" which affect AMD CPU and crashing on recent Intel CPU.

More or less this: https://community.intel.com/t5/Processors/July-2024-Update-on-Instability-Reports-on-Intel-Core-13th-and/m-p/1617113

Does not really matter to these low speed / power machines as they are based on a different architecture AND as from what seems to be discussed is that it only hits the 65 Watt + CPUs.
There are a ton of youtube videos about this.

I have several of these PCs from Beelink and others. Some have drives from what I would call low price tier 2 makers and others have generic no name ones. All are QLC except for one.
RAM has been the same. Never a Crucial or Corsair but still a name I have heard of (i.e. TEAMGROUP)

But, when you are getting a complete mini PC for under $200 (usually under $175) what do you really expect.

Quote from: RickDeckard on August 15, 2024, 08:33:47 AM

I'm also very apprehensive of buying hardware of that nature from places like AliExpress, Gearbest and other alike. The price is most often than not very enticing but I can't for sure say that they are not compromised (no free lunches after all). Quite recently I have been fancying the idea of just gather up some parts and build it myself just for the joy of it, but at the moment I don't really have the time for it, so it's just a project that is currently sitting in the shelf...

Where are you based? You can get them cheap at Amazon and wipe the drive and re-install.

-Dave

RickDeckard

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 15, 2024, 05:26:53 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on August 15, 2024, 05:15:17 AM

To those who own mini PC (especially cheap ones or from unpopular brand)

I've seen some very good offers (considering the price and specs) for mini-PCs from Wish or similar sites, but I'd never dare use them because I don't trust the hardware. What if it somehow shares my data by "calling home"? It's not worth the risk.

I'm also very apprehensive of buying hardware of that nature from places like AliExpress, Gearbest and other alike. The price is most often than not very enticing but I can't for sure say that they are not compromised (no free lunches after all). Quite recently I have been fancying the idea of just gather up some parts and build it myself just for the joy of it, but at the moment I don't really have the time for it, so it's just a project that is currently sitting in the shelf...

LoyceV

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 15, 2024, 05:15:17 AM

To those who own mini PC (especially cheap ones or from unpopular brand)

I've seen some very good offers (considering the price and specs) for mini-PCs from Wish or similar sites, but I'd never dare use them because I don't trust the hardware. What if it somehow shares my data by "calling home"? It's not worth the risk.

ABCbits

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To those who own mini PC (especially cheap ones or from unpopular brand), have you ever check details of RAM and SSD included by the brand? Some time ago, i briefly helped my friend who have lag problem on his mini PC. Aside from removing some bloatware, i also find out his mini PC use very obscure SSD brand. That SSD seems to use QLC which become very slow on high write activity and also slow down whole system.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 14, 2024, 11:08:19 AM

--snip--
I don't know if you heard about recent unfixable bugs found both in Intel and AMD processors, so better check if your processors are affected by this.

Which unfixable bugs you're talking about? I did quick search and only found about "Sinkclose" which affect AMD CPU and crashing on recent Intel CPU.

dkbit98

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Quote from: odolvlobo on August 10, 2024, 08:57:20 PM

I just bought a GMKtec NucBox G5, with N97 CPU, 12 GB RAM, 256 GB M.2 SATA SSD, and Win 11 Pro for $160. I plan to replace the SSD with 2TB and install Linux. It is very small -- about 7.25 cm x 7.25 cm x 4.5 cm.

Not bad for that price, and I found some sales online even cheaper for similar configuration.
I don't know if you heard about recent unfixable bugs found both in Intel and AMD processors, so better check if your processors are affected by this.

odolvlobo

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I just bought a GMKtec NucBox G5, with N97 CPU, 12 GB RAM, 256 GB M.2 SATA SSD, and Win 11 Pro for $160. I plan to replace the SSD with 2TB and install Linux. It is very small -- about 7.25 cm x 7.25 cm x 4.5 cm.

There is also NucBox G3 for $150 with N100, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB M.2 SSD and Win 11 Pro for $150 (or bare bones for $120). The advantage of this one over the G5 is that it has an additional NVME SSD slot.

DaveF

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 04, 2024, 04:11:48 AM

The price is attractive, but it's a shame company who make those mini PC rarely offer 2TB option which better for running full node in long term. You either have to buy bare-bone version (where you also buy and put RAM/SSD by yourself) or buy ready-to-use ones which have extra SSD slot.

At this point it's probably better to get the 1TB version and in a year clone it to a 2TB or 4TB drive and go from there.

External nvme m.2 cases are cheap enough (once again looking at the US pricing) and larger drives just keep dropping in price. So start with the 1TB, and then when it gets full get a larger one + external. Clone the 1TB to the larger one using the external case and then you have more space on your node and a handy 1TB external drive.

Some of the mini units do have a SATA + m.2 but not all and with the ever changing specs of these cheaper units it's tough to be sure till you get it and open it up.

-Dave

RickDeckard

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 04, 2024, 04:11:48 AM

The price is attractive, but it's a shame company who make those mini PC rarely offer 2TB option which better for running full node in long term. You either have to buy bare-bone version (where you also buy and put RAM/SSD by yourself) or buy ready-to-use ones which have extra SSD slot.

2TB isn't very often found in these systems (that I'm aware) because most people that use them don't need that much space considering the market they are aiming for. However, as it was suggested before, just buying this machine, selling the 1TB SSD (which wouldn't be hard I believe) and then buying a 2TB one would make things a little bit even on the cost side.

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Quote from: RickDeckard on August 03, 2024, 07:36:51 AM

I believe that SSD's for this format will be expensive so perhaps it won't be a good option when compared to others already in the market with Intel N100, but it may be useful for some other applications as well.

Not only more expensive, but it also have smaller maximum capacity. I did quick search and most result shows 512GB or 1TB option, with fewer option for 2TB. Current Bitcoin blockchain size is about 600GB, where it grows almost 100GB in last year. So 1TB isn't best option in long run, especially if you also want to run self-hosted block explorer/Electrum server which require more storage capacity.

Quote from: DaveF on August 03, 2024, 05:50:01 PM

Yeah, Amazon US has a couple with 1TB drives for less

The price is attractive, but it's a shame company who make those mini PC rarely offer 2TB option which better for running full node in long term. You either have to buy bare-bone version (where you also buy and put RAM/SSD by yourself) or buy ready-to-use ones which have extra SSD slot.

DaveF

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Quote from: RickDeckard on August 03, 2024, 04:39:24 PM

Quote from: DaveF on August 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM

It looks neat, but I keep coming back to the fact that you can get a new N100 system with 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD for under $200
All in a box ready to do. Things like the Radxa are WAYYYY cooler to tinker with.

Can't deny that. At the time of my previous writings the Beelink had a higher price but now it's sitting on 189€ at Amazon.de[1] which makes it enticing for a new unit (even still considering buying a new SSD card).

I guess that this thread has become a nice collection of small forms devices that have potential uses for numerous applications. However, for the initial task at hand - running a node and blockchain explorer - there's no denying that a refurbished/used pc (such as the Dell Optiplex M range of machines) ends up being a more modest choice.

[1]https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Intel-Alder-Lake-N100-Computer-Bluetooth5-2/dp/B08DFL2L1F

Yeah, Amazon US has a couple with 1TB drives for less

But they are priced according to region.

https://www.amazon.com/KAMRUI-Lake-N100-Computers-Computer-Ethernet/dp/B0CL7DLH6T/?th=1

Once you get to this kind of price point even the used / refurbs become tough to justify.

The advantage of the RPi is that it does keep it's value due to their long production runs of the same product.
I just sold 1 of these for about what I paid for it 3 years ago:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nodes-in-a-box-5364113

Try that with a PC.....

-Dave

RickDeckard

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Quote from: DaveF on August 03, 2024, 11:01:07 AM

It looks neat, but I keep coming back to the fact that you can get a new N100 system with 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD for under $200
All in a box ready to do. Things like the Radxa are WAYYYY cooler to tinker with.

Can't deny that. At the time of my previous writings the Beelink had a higher price but now it's sitting on 189€ at Amazon.de[1] which makes it enticing for a new unit (even still considering buying a new SSD card).

I guess that this thread has become a nice collection of small forms devices that have potential uses for numerous applications. However, for the initial task at hand - running a node and blockchain explorer - there's no denying that a refurbished/used pc (such as the Dell Optiplex M range of machines) ends up being a more modest choice.

[1]https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Intel-Alder-Lake-N100-Computer-Bluetooth5-2/dp/B08DFL2L1F

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Quote from: RickDeckard on August 03, 2024, 07:36:51 AM

This could be interesting (?) - Radxa recently has launched Radxa X4[1] with the following attributes:

Quote

Intel N100 CPU (4 Alderlake CPU cores, up to 3.4GHz)
Intel UHD Graphics (750MHz)
4/8/12/16GB LPDDR5 4786MT/s
2.5Gbit RJ45 Ethernet (with PoE support via HAT)
M.2 M-Key connection for M.2 2230 NVMe drives
12V USB-C Power Delivery Input
3x USB-A 3.2 (10Gbps) ports, 1x USB-A 2.0
WiFi 5 & BT5, or WiFi 6 & BT5.2 (the latter on 8GB RAM models and up)
2x Micro HDMI (up to 4K60)
Raspberry Pi RP2040 to control the 40-pin GPIO headers
Fan & RTC Battery headers
3.5mm Headphone & Microphone Jack
eMMC is available either to solder yourself or when you order a SKU that includes it

Some reviews have starting to appear[2] but it's still too early to tell I suppose. The product is also out of stock in all of the approved shop partners of Radxa so we won't be able to actually grab one at the moment even if we wanted to. I believe that SSD's for this format will be expensive so perhaps it won't be a good option when compared to others already in the market with Intel N100, but it may be useful for some other applications as well.

[1]https://radxa.com/products/x/x4/
[2]https://bret.dk/intel-n100-radxa-x4-first-thoughts/

It looks neat, but I keep coming back to the fact that you can get a new N100 system with 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD for under $200
All in a box ready to do. Things like the Radxa are WAYYYY cooler to tinker with.

But the 8 GB Radxa + drive + case + power supply and you are at a higher price point.
To get you what? For tinkering yeah it's much better.
To run a node + explorer + other BTC / crypto related things? I'll take the mini PC.
And as has been pointed out, used PCs are even cheaper.

Will probably still pick one up to tinker with if they become more available, but to play with not for node use.

-Dave

RickDeckard

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This could be interesting (?) - Radxa recently has launched Radxa X4[1] with the following attributes:

Quote

Intel N100 CPU (4 Alderlake CPU cores, up to 3.4GHz)
Intel UHD Graphics (750MHz)
4/8/12/16GB LPDDR5 4786MT/s
2.5Gbit RJ45 Ethernet (with PoE support via HAT)
M.2 M-Key connection for M.2 2230 NVMe drives
12V USB-C Power Delivery Input
3x USB-A 3.2 (10Gbps) ports, 1x USB-A 2.0
WiFi 5 & BT5, or WiFi 6 & BT5.2 (the latter on 8GB RAM models and up)
2x Micro HDMI (up to 4K60)
Raspberry Pi RP2040 to control the 40-pin GPIO headers
Fan & RTC Battery headers
3.5mm Headphone & Microphone Jack
eMMC is available either to solder yourself or when you order a SKU that includes it

Some reviews have starting to appear[2] but it's still too early to tell I suppose. The product is also out of stock in all of the approved shop partners of Radxa so we won't be able to actually grab one at the moment even if we wanted to. I believe that SSD's for this format will be expensive so perhaps it won't be a good option when compared to others already in the market with Intel N100, but it may be useful for some other applications as well.

[1]https://radxa.com/products/x/x4/
[2]https://bret.dk/intel-n100-radxa-x4-first-thoughts/

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-Pro-Lake-N100-Desktop-Computer/dp/B0CRNPBGNB/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?

so the unit above is cheap it needs an upgrade to a 1 or 2 tb ssd.

below a 32gb
two 1 tb ssds
i7 9700t cpu

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145780003157?

under 575 which is a bit pricey

you can get it for 430 and no drives

if you are patient you can do this for less

I like an i7 intel t low power cpu with 32gb ram just look close on ebay.

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Quote from: DaveF on May 20, 2024, 06:37:32 AM

Assuming the Beelink is the same one that Amazon is selling here in the US after getting the 1TB drive you now have the old 512GB that you can sell dropping the price even more.

The one I saw was from a random vendor in Amazon Germany[1] and it came with a 500 GB PCIe M.2 SSD which hovers around 40-50 €. If you're able to sell it you'll be able to have the unit ready with a 1TB for overall 210-230 € depending on the SSD you get.

Quote from: DaveF on May 20, 2024, 06:37:32 AM

Still, the H4 is a neat product, will probably pick one up if the price drops since it's going to probably get played with and tested and put in a cabinet and forgotten about......

So it is not only my disease it seems, good to know. If the price does drop I would also consider fetching a unit, but right now the price difference is big when compared to other (similar) options available.

[1]https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Intel-Alder-Lake-N100-Computer-Bluetooth5-2/dp/B08DFL2L1F

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Quote from: RickDeckard on May 20, 2024, 06:03:20 AM

Reviews of Odroid H4 are starting to appear[1] (H4 Plus vs H4 Ultra). It seems that the Ultra reaches high temperatures (around 60ºC) and since it doesn't have holes to mount a fan, but this could be surpassed by mounting the fan in the case (although it is not optimal). The section where he played an emulated game in there (God of War 2) wasn't that great as well, but that could had to do with some configurations.

H4 Plus ended up being the chosen winner for his review (considering that is cheaper, low powered consumption, less heat), so it's a case that the pricier may not be the best overall.

Price wise, the H4 Plus in Europe is hovering around 180 €[2] and this is just the board. Considering charger, memory (16GB) and SSD (1TB) it goes up to ~ 380 € and it would still need a case. The Beelink Mini S12 Pro can be found for 200 € in Europe right now + a 1TB nvme stick for around ~ 60 €, so the price difference ends up being more than 120 € considering that we are missing a case. As it stands currently, it ends up being a better alternative (price wise) between the two.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmBaTZ9S114
[2]https://www.odroid.nl/odroid-h4-series/Odroid-H4-Plus

Assuming the Beelink is the same one that Amazon is selling here in the US after getting the 1TB drive you now have the old 512GB that you can sell dropping the price even more.

Still, the H4 is a neat product, will probably pick one up if the price drops since it's going to probably get played with and tested and put in a cabinet and forgotten about......

-Dave

Topic: Cheap & silent mini PC for Bitcoin node & blockchain explorer? - page 3. (Read 1934 times)