The claim that science had advanced despite religion completely overlooks the fundamental relationship between God, progress, and freedom. The only reason we have come as far as we have is due to the organizational superstructure provided by the worship of God.
If you are interested in the logic behind this I would refer you to the following posts:
Religion and Progress
The Nature of Freedom
The Beginning of Wisdom
And you are missing my point. You don't need to overlay Christianity on progress and freedom. You get progress and freedom despite Christianity. Believe in unreal entities does not help you solve problems humanity is facing. A fixed framework based on an outdated world view always hinders progress. Religions were always in the business of enslaving not freedom.
Look in the historical context what this religion has done. How can you say with a straight face religions contributed to progress? You guys were killing people left and right, people who had progressive ideas or scientific breakthroughs.
Slavery, racial and gender inequality was a major thing in Christianity, until recently when the church had to give in. Look how Amish communities treat women, how they treat children, how 'progressive' their communities are. Christian communities few hundred years ago were more conservative and backwards than Amish communities of today.
Think of what you are saying. Christianity was never about progress or freedom. Quite the opposite. We have a fucking proof in the living Amish and Mennonite communities, as well as in the thousands of people killed to STOP progress and enslave people on EVERY continent.
You can sell your religion propaganda in your church basement, but in an open forum it will be challenged with FACTS.
af_newbie you make several claims here and I will address them in turn.
Claim #1
Christianity and monotheism is in the business of slavery not freedom.
Freedom and God
Freedom is the right of the individual to choose how he controls himself, so long as he respects the equal rights of every other individual to control and plan his own life. Freedom is thus not the ability to do whatever you want. It is self-control, and self-government, no more, no less.
Leftism is the religion which promises the individual he/she can entirely free, protected, while protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected.
Sounds very noble right? Read on...
All religions exist to protect the society (and the family) against the defection of the individual. Traditional religions argue that subjugation of some of the "evil" whims of the individual (e.g. extra-martial affairs) is necessary to maximize the success of the society, e.g. children who grow up without their fathers usually do statistically much worse in life in various metrics, including health.
Whereas, in leftism the "evil" is not "protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected". But what does this really mean? It is double-speak. It really means to steal from production so as to enable people to abandon their moral responsibilities so that the society can be utterly destroyed by hedonism and other ramifications of offering everyone "state-supported freedom" (which is a guaranteed megadeath hell in the future).
But don't dare tell the leftist, atheists that their idealism is corrupt, bankrupt, and disingenuous. They will gut you with a knife if you dare challenge the veracity of their beloved social justice.
"Entirely free" means you can do what ever you want and there are no NATURAL LAW ramifications (the State will always support your right to do what ever you want), as long as you support the State's right to protect and economically provide for everyone's right to do what ever they want. In other words, a "free for all" of political correctness and stealing.
But NATURAL LAW in inviolable. No State can protect every individual from the NATURAL LAW. And if you tell people they can be entirely free (including economic freedom for everyone and every whim), then you have lied.
In short, leftism is a Tragedy of the Commons. Thus is a false religion. It lies. It is Satan's religion.
To understand society we need to understand what our options are. There are only two ways to build and sustain a large and complex society. The first is oppression and slavery. Using oppression and slavery one can enforce control through violence. The second and far harder path is to build a free society but this path is challenging and slow as humans are not inherently designed to function in large groups. This was well stated by Henning Web Prentis, Jr who described how the loss of morality would take a people from freedom to bondage.
Quote from: Henning Webb Prentis, Jr
Paradoxically enough, the release of initiative and enterprise made possible by popular self-government ultimately generates disintegrating forces from within. Again and again after freedom has brought opportunity and some degree of plenty, the competent become selfish, luxury-loving and complacent, the incompetent and the unfortunate grow envious and covetous, and all three groups turn aside from the hard road of freedom to worship the Golden Calf of economic security.
The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."
The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."
It is moral degradation that leads to bondage for it is moral strengthening that allows free societies to be built in the first place.
This is why Ethical Monotheism is so important and the reason why so much that is good in the world came from the west. It is Ethical Monotheism that teaches us not to sin even when dealing with strangers.
Claim #3
Monotheism is a fixed framework based on an outdated world views and thus always hinders progress
Religion and Progress
The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.
Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism. Collectivism aggregates capital for the common good and we are far from outgrowing our need for this.
1. Prehistory required the aggregation of human capital in the form of young warriors willing to fight to protect the tribe.
2. The Agricultural Age required physical capital in the form of land ownership and a State to protect the land.
3. The Industrial Age required the aggregation of monetary capital to fund large fixed capital investments and factories.
A farmer in the agricultural age could achieve some protection from theft and violence by arming himself. He could protect himself against a small hostile groups by forming defensive pacts with neighboring farmers. To defend against large scale organized violence, however, requires an army and thus a state.
In 1651 Thomas Hobbes argued for the merits of centralized monarchy. He believed that only absolute monarchy was capable of suppressing the evils of an unrestrained humanity. He described in graphic wording the consequences of a world without monarchy a condition he called the state of nature.
Quote
In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan
There may well have been a time in human history when the absolute monarchy of Hobbes was the best available government but Hobbes was writing at the end of that era. England had been transformed from a nation almost completely conquered by the Odin worshiping Great Heathen Army of 865 to a country that protected the legal rights of nobles in the Magna Carta of 1215 to a devoutly Christian nation that formalized the rights of judicial review for common citizens in the 1679 Habeas Corpus act. Hobbes had failed to appreciate the growth of moral capital that allowed for superior forms of government with increased freedom.
Our forefathers understood that it is morality and virtue that allows for freedom a lesson many today have forgotten.
Quote
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin
“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington
“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington
Claim #4
Religion is about controlling people
Religion and Control
In human interactions we often face a choice between cooperation (reaching a mutually beneficial exchange) and defection (advancement of ourselves to the detriment of our fellow man). The nation state, police, and laws suppress physical violence but do nothing to maintain the morality and virtue that sustain freedom. Collectivism limits some avenues of defection while opening entire new possibilities. New opportunities for defection arise along the entire economic spectrum. Everything from special interest lobbying, to disability scammers, and on a larger scale our entire fiat monetary system are essentially forms of defection allowing the few to profit at the expense of the many. Nation state collectivism has allowed for the creation of great civilizations and yet is entirely unsustainable in its current form.
Religion indeed is a form of control, but that statement is meaningless without context. Ultimately the relevant question is what kind of control is religion. That answer of course varies depending on the religion we are talking about. The primitive idols worshiping pagans had horrific gods. These religions were tools of extreme top-down oppression and their extinction is welcome. See my post on Pagans and Human Sacrifice if you are interested in more on this.
However, belief in God especially individual belief in God coupled with a fear of God is something else entirely. A society where all individuals genuinely believed in and feared God would have very little defection. What defection did occur would be the result of ignorance not malice and even that would decline with time as knowledge progressed. An individual restrained only by a genuine belief and fear of God has complete operational autonomy he would willing choose only cooperation and never defection limited only by his knowledge of what actions constituted genuine cooperation.
Belief in God is top-down control. It is the purest manifestation of control. It is a form of control that ultimately enables a maximization of freedom. Rejecting God leads to higher levels of defection and consequentially less freedom.
Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"
