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Topic: ChromaWallet (colored coins): issue and trade private currencies/stocks/bonds/.. - page 10. (Read 96886 times)

legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
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For example, let's say you own some gold at your house. You could hypothetically take 5 satoshis (0.00000005 BTC) and say that each one of those satoshis is equal to one gram of the gold that you hold in your home. You could then exchange those 5 satoshis backed by one gram of gold each on the decentralized exchange in the Chromawallet.
see http://voices.yahoo.com/bitcoin-20-explained-colored-coins-vs-mastercoin-vs-12475857.html?cat=15&utm_content=buffer522e4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

How are the colored coins "backed" by the gold. The guy that issued the colored "gold coins" wont send the gold to me?! And what keeps me from saying I have 1 kilo of gold here and will color this kilo, so you can then buy it from me for 45 (colored) BTC (about what a kilo is worth in btc, roughly). Are the btc held in escrow or burned or something?

You see I didnt get it yet Smiley But everywhere I read about colored coins people don't really get specific about how it works.  

When you buy a stock from the stock exchange,  what do you get?

When you buy an ETF like GLD from a stock exchange, what do you get?

In both cases,  you get an IOU from the issuer or the stock or ETF.
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
Quote
For example, let's say you own some gold at your house. You could hypothetically take 5 satoshis (0.00000005 BTC) and say that each one of those satoshis is equal to one gram of the gold that you hold in your home. You could then exchange those 5 satoshis backed by one gram of gold each on the decentralized exchange in the Chromawallet.
see http://voices.yahoo.com/bitcoin-20-explained-colored-coins-vs-mastercoin-vs-12475857.html?cat=15&utm_content=buffer522e4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

How are the colored coins "backed" by the gold. The guy that issued the colored "gold coins" wont send the gold to me?! And what keeps me from saying I have 1 kilo of gold here and will color this kilo, so you can then buy it from me for 45 (colored) BTC (about what a kilo is worth in btc, roughly). Are the btc held in escrow or burned or something?

You see I didnt get it yet Smiley But everywhere I read about colored coins people don't really get specific about how it works. 
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1002
By the way, killerstorm, you can list your complementary-currency-related (also free knowledge-related) chromawallet project on the freicoin foundation web to receive matched donations.
The colored coins nonprofit could be listed too:

http://foundation.freicoin.org/#/donations

how can I buy it?

You don't buy "colored coins", you issue your own "color" and buy other people's colors.
Why are you so eager to put your money into something you don't know anything about?
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Cryptotalk.org - Get paid for every post!
Alternative,  would you be able to act on an advisory role on the implementation?  Just review and validate the implementation?

Yes, if you can find people who can implement it (first and foremost brave C++ programmer(s)), I'll be able to discuss it.

Excellent!  Thanks in advance.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
Would you be able to come up with a more detailed spec?

No.

Alternative,  would you be able to act on an advisory role on the implementation?  Just review and validate the implementation?

Yes, if you can find people who can implement it (first and foremost brave C++ programmer(s)), I'll be able to discuss it.
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Cryptotalk.org - Get paid for every post!
I have a query.  What would it take for a merged mined coin like iXcoin to support colored coins 'natively'.

Well, you need a developer who can do that kind of thing...

From technical perspective, the solution is kinda obvious: add color tags to transaction outputs, track "colorvalue" for each UTXO, make sure that miners check validity, introduce a way to make genesis transactions... That's the basic version.

Freimarkets is quite a bit more sophisticated, but I guess you're asking about the simplest thing which could work, right?

If you can find a good developer (ideally, one who is already familiar with Bitcoin source code), it would take him something like a week to implement a basic version.

There are many design considerations, say, compatibility with existing tools... Is that important? Hard to say.

Would you be able to come up with a more detailed spec? 

Alternative,  would you be able to act on an advisory role on the implementation?  Just review and validate the implementation?
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
I have a query.  What would it take for a merged mined coin like iXcoin to support colored coins 'natively'.

Well, you need a developer who can do that kind of thing...

From technical perspective, the solution is kinda obvious: add color tags to transaction outputs, track "colorvalue" for each UTXO, make sure that miners check validity, introduce a way to make genesis transactions... That's the basic version.

Freimarkets is quite a bit more sophisticated, but I guess you're asking about the simplest thing which could work, right?

If you can find a good developer (ideally, one who is already familiar with Bitcoin source code), it would take him something like a week to implement a basic version.

There are many design considerations, say, compatibility with existing tools... Is that important? Hard to say.
newbie
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
Colored coins is a concept, it is not a concrete coin one can buy.

I have no sympathy for person who fell for it, scam announcement didn't even try to explain how it can make one rich.

I can't agree more. Let's keep moving where we are at.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
Colored coins is a concept, it is not a concrete coin one can buy.

I have no sympathy for person who fell for it, scam announcement didn't even try to explain how it could make one rich.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
I've reported it to the Mods, I suggest you all do the same please.

Looks like someone already fell for it?
https://blockchain.info/address/1CwDJyAJTUkwpmmU3sfBmVY41bmkKPuoC
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Here is  "[ColoredCoins]Pre-Launch sale Announcement".
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--402561
Is it a scam??? Huh

Bump

This is what I came here to ask.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Here is  "[ColoredCoins]Pre-Launch sale Announcement".
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--402561
Is it a scam??? Huh
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
Cryptotalk.org - Get paid for every post!
I have a query.  What would it take for a merged mined coin like iXcoin to support colored coins 'natively'.

In other words,  iXcoin has less of the legacy baggage that bitcoin has, so it is within the realm of practical that iXcoin be modified to support colored coins natively.

What would be the features to accomplish this?

Note: iXcoin is merged mine with BTC, so it has around 40% of the network hash rate as BTC.  In fact iXcoin has a surprising 5 peta hash per second network.   It is at least one order of magnitude more secure than say PPC.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
So the big tl;dr with nSequence vs any other scheme is that only nSequence is based on per-txin-scriptSig information, or basically it's the only scheme(1) that's CoinJoin-compatible. The reason why it's compatible is that all the information about where the "color" of the txin is meant to go is in the txin, rather than any other part of the transaction, which allows the rest of the transaction to be specified by other individuals.

I'm not sure whether you mean that it is compatible with a particular existing protocol, or whether it is compatible with p2p coin mixing in general.

I believe that 1) we need to use color-aware p2p coin mixing for colored coins; 2) in that case it doesn't matter which coloring scheme you use.

First, I should note that I did research on p2p mixing before it was cool about a year before gmaxwell described CoinJoin, so I don't know what terminology is currently in use... But anyway, I describe quality of mixing in terms of entropy, i.e. a measure of uncertainty. E.g. if attacker is able to trace a particular txout to a set of 1024 txouts, each of which can be a source of money equiprobably, then mixing entropy is 10 bits. Bigger is better.

Suppose there are colored coins in a CoinJoin transaction, for simplicity we can assume that there is one txin/txout with each color. Obviously, attacker can trivially connect txout to txin. So we get two things out of it:

1. there are no mixing entropy gains for colored coins
2. mixing entropy gains are reduced for non-colored coins

So it is definitely better when mixing is color-aware... And if mixing is color-aware, then order-based coloring and its variants work fine. Basically, you just do this mixing thing for each color in separation (it's OK to reorder txins/txouts withing one color), and then you just concatenate smaller transactions together (txins_1 + txins_2 + txins_3, txouts_1 + txouts_2 + txouts_3).

So now

1. it is possible to mix colored coins too
2. everybody can easily understand entropy gain and plan accordingly.

Perhaps I'm missing something... If your point is that it is possible to re-use existing protocol (if it is possible, I'm not sure about that: we need an ability to modify nSequence after list of outputs is known), then I guess it is good because it is saves work, but doing color-aware mixing protocol is definitely better in the long term.


being able to easily hide who paid for a given colored coin is useful privacy, and increases the anonymity set for everyone else.

You can get same results by mixing your coins before you buy that colored coin.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1149
Also I'd like to get comments from Peter Todd (bitfield-tagged color kernel mentioned above is based on his ideas). He now works for Mastercoin, but I don't know whether that preclude him from helping us with coloring schemes.

In simple terms, I know a way to make both padding and scaling parametrizable on transaction level, which will let us to achieve nearly-optimal satoshi efficiency. Also transactions will have unique signature, which is important for backward-scan traversal strategy.

I'm not sure whether we should use nSequence or OP_RETURN. nSequence is more efficient, but seems kinda hackish.

So the big tl;dr with nSequence vs any other scheme is that only nSequence is based on per-txin-scriptSig information, or basically it's the only scheme(1) that's CoinJoin-compatible. The reason why it's compatible is that all the information about where the "color" of the txin is meant to go is in the txin, rather than any other part of the transaction, which allows the rest of the transaction to be specified by other individuals.

I'm rather inclined to keep that feature simply because being able to easily hide who paid for a given colored coin is useful privacy, and increases the anonymity set for everyone else.

1) You can use the R-value nonce in the ECC signature too, but... ugh. Smiley Though it would have the advantage of making colored coin transactions completely indistinguishable from regular ones.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
How do you "import" and reissue a security that was previously issued in one of those closed exchanges like btct.co etc?

We'll probably write some kind of script for that when software will be ready to run on mainnet (I hope in January) and IF there is interest in this.

I think it can be some kind of a web site where user enters his colored coin address, signed with his public address on btct.co. Then once a list of colored coin addresses are obtained, script will send them colored coins according to data from btct.co.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
So, when are we going to have a lightweight version of the wallet? If it requires Bitcoin-qt it will be a big challenge to get users to use it.

Indeed. We plan to include this option (run without local bitcoind) into the beta release. (Probably in January.)

We have already implemented a very basic version of backward scan in coloredcoinlib: https://github.com/bitcoinx/ngcccbase/blob/master/coloredcoinlib/colordata.py#L76

But it needs some improvements... Also it isn't recommended for use with OBC.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1015
Just in case, what is available now is a preview, alpha version, meant only to run on the testnet.

It's still possible that we'll change some substantial aspect, I don't want to be tied to this old release.

Will you also add support for tagging-based or per-satoshi coloring?

Yes. In fact we already implemented some form of tagging:

https://github.com/bitcoinx/ngcccbase/issues/27#issuecomment-29735370

but it's less than perfect...

I have some improvements in mind which could make it satisfactory, but I'm waiting for comments from Vitalik Buterin who writes "BitcoinX whitepaper": ideally we would use same kind of coloring scheme in BitcoinX and chromatoken versions.

Also I'd like to get comments from Peter Todd (bitfield-tagged color kernel mentioned above is based on his ideas). He now works for Mastercoin, but I don't know whether that preclude him from helping us with coloring schemes.

In simple terms, I know a way to make both padding and scaling parametrizable on transaction level, which will let us to achieve nearly-optimal satoshi efficiency. Also transactions will have unique signature, which is important for backward-scan traversal strategy.

I'm not sure whether we should use nSequence or OP_RETURN. nSequence is more efficient, but seems kinda hackish.

Also any scheme with padding or scaling creates some accounting problems, but we can probably take them into account in p2ptrade with some effort.



We won't implement per-satoshi tracking. I actually implemented it for a different project (twice!), but I'm not going to add it to coloredcoinlib because it's not compatible with thin clients (if colored satoshi can be paid as a fee), and hard to deal with anyway.
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