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Topic: Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks - page 5. (Read 17281 times)

sr. member
Activity: 365
Merit: 251
I'll tell you my theories anyway: the two PhDs who wrote that research have a clear nxt bias. Look at their hidden multibranch section: they say that they got 3/20 of 500 blocks with 10% stake. 3/20 of 500 is 75 blocks. They got 75 blocks! if people wait for 6 confirmations, I only need 6 blocks, not 75. So I can do with much less than 10% stake. Of course 10% stake means 10% of actively forging coins, which means 10% of 10% of supply. So, much less than 1% of supply to double spend. Of course that's still a few hundred BTCs for NXT so I'll start with a smaller coin.

I already bought a few coins... just wait until age is accumulated...
Nxt recommends 10 blocks for normal confirmation, 720 to be sure. (There's a rolling check point at 720.)

Generally Nxt has 40-50% forging, so 10% stake means 4-5% of supply.

Sure, thanks. But attacking nxt requires funding that I don't have. I still claim that it can be attacked with less than 10%
NXT may not have age since last transaction, but it has "age" since last block. It accumulates equally to all miners ("forgers"?), but I believe it can be gamed to obtain more than the fair share of probabilities of creating a fork.
I don't know what you're talking about here. Nxt makes newly moved coins wait 1440 blocks before their weight is counted, but after that their weight counts in every block. I don't know what you mean by "age [that] accumulates equally to all miners". The chance of forging a block does not depend on how long it is since the previous block you forged. It depends on what fraction of the forging coins you have.

What is your criteria for a successful attack?
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
cynicSOB, what would be the required countermeasure for a staking coin? decrease the maximum coin age?

https://blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf


These changes made BC less like Peercoin and more like Nxt (possibly, exactly the same as Nxt. What are the chances.. Cheesy) .



Improvements on their proof of stake algorithm by blackcoin: http://www.blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf Any relevance to Nxt?

They removed "age" and their PoS is very similar* to Nxt PoS now.

-------------
* - I would say "exactly the same" but some details r not clear.
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/price-speculation/msg56825/#msg56825


That only Blackcoin developers made security patches and changes to "POS System (PoS2.0)" to fix problems.

The funny thing is that Blackcoin changes in PoS system led to the scheme that has been used in Nxt since day 1.  Cheesy
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/price-speculation/msg56825/#msg56825
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
cynicSOB, what would be the required countermeasure for a staking coin? decrease the maximum coin age?

https://blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
My thought was, that the high diff comes from one single node.
That could be a major stakeholder or an attacker. But I am with you. Idea has gaps.

Whatever, someone will find a solution.  Wink

Cheers,
Ray
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
But killing zombies is a lot of fun.


yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own Wink

agreed and +1
At the end of 2015 many coins will be dead. (Without any attack)

But I want my coin secure. The possibility of an attack is reason enough for me.
Shitcoins will not update their code. Most of them have no active development.
Like I said: Attacking a shitcoin is like killing a zombie. Nobody cares. Look at Apex.

Cheers,
Ray


exactly killing next to dead coins isn't impressive, nor does it really show what would happen to a "good" coin with a large network. wouldn't using testnet be much more useful? 

I never really followed Apex, was it yet another one with a ditching dev like mobcoin, nebula, xanon, etc, etc , etc ,etc ? cause non of them are on exchanges or have people trying to make something happen with them. (even if their just bag holders looking for a dev to take over)  just dead

apex was still on an exchange even if any trading movement was just to get the .2 btc daily so they didn't get kicked off the exchange.

I don't know seems like if you guys were just interested in making good coins safer you'd use testnet, find weaknesses and make coins stronger... if your killing zombies just for fun... your still killing just for fun and it's still quite psychotic Wink

He is using testnet as well. In fact he's just been working on NXT testnet at the request of many. I'm guessing you haven't read the thread thus far. He's doing a good job so far and lots of people are interested in seeing more of his attempts.

This type of thing is critical for PoS to really be considered a robust consensus system. Actually it's not great that it's taken this long for some good public stress testing/attacks. Anyone interested in the idea of PoS should be supporting people who can help strengthen it.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
yes, sometimes I'm a cynical SOB
I don't know seems like if you guys were just interested in making good coins safer you'd use testnet, find weaknesses and make coins stronger...

testnet is not enough for some security research
the blockchain doesn't behave exactly the same, and the coin being half-alive and in an exchange gives me the opportunity to see how they react to the attack
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
yes, sometimes I'm a cynical SOB
But killing zombies is a lot of fun.

so is this Smiley

c'mon, APEX's price hasn't moved, and they didn't even have checkpointing servers (not that it would have helped, but It shows they didn't care or they were not prepared to run a coin).
I like to think I'm not destroying work, I'm building a more secure future. For our kids! would anybody think about the children !?

Hey cynicSOB,
what do you think about that: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10208018

Would it lower your success?

Cheers,
Ray


I think it wouldn't work: how can you tell an attack from normal use? if you have 2 chains that look similar but have one conflicting tx you have to choose one, there's just no way to avoid that. How do you define which is the "good" one? an attack may not even change the difficulty
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
But killing zombies is a lot of fun.

so is this Smiley

c'mon, APEX's price hasn't moved, and they didn't even have checkpointing servers (not that it would have helped, but It shows they didn't care or they were not prepared to run a coin).
I like to think I'm not destroying work, I'm building a more secure future. For our kids! would anybody think about the children !?

Hey cynicSOB,
what do you think about that: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10208018

Would it lower your success?

Cheers,
Ray
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
Kaspa
But killing zombies is a lot of fun.


yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own Wink

agreed and +1
At the end of 2015 many coins will be dead. (Without any attack)

But I want my coin secure. The possibility of an attack is reason enough for me.
Shitcoins will not update their code. Most of them have no active development.
Like I said: Attacking a shitcoin is like killing a zombie. Nobody cares. Look at Apex.

Cheers,
Ray


exactly killing next to dead coins isn't impressive, nor does it really show what would happen to a "good" coin with a large network. wouldn't using testnet be much more useful?  

I never really followed Apex, was it yet another one with a ditching dev like mobcoin, nebula, xanon, etc, etc , etc ,etc ? cause non of them are on exchanges or have people trying to make something happen with them. (even if their just bag holders looking for a dev to take over)  just dead

apex was still on an exchange even if any trading movement was just to get the .2 btc daily so they didn't get kicked off the exchange.

I don't know seems like if you guys were just interested in making good coins safer you'd use testnet, find weaknesses and make coins stronger... if your killing zombies just for fun... your still killing just for fun and it's still quite psychotic Wink
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
yes, sometimes I'm a cynical SOB
But killing zombies is a lot of fun.

so is this Smiley

c'mon, APEX's price hasn't moved, and they didn't even have checkpointing servers (not that it would have helped, but It shows they didn't care or they were not prepared to run a coin).
I like to think I'm not destroying work, I'm building a more secure future. For our kids! would anybody think about the children !?
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
Do you really want to kill that beautiful lady?

sr. member
Activity: 658
Merit: 250
But killing zombies is a lot of fun.


yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own Wink

agreed and +1
At the end of 2015 many coins will be dead. (Without any attack)

But I want my coin secure. The possibility of an attack is reason enough for me.
Shitcoins will not update their code. Most of them have no active development.
Like I said: Attacking a shitcoin is like killing a zombie. Nobody cares. Look at Apex.

Cheers,
Ray

legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own Wink

agreed and +1
At the end of 2015 many coins will be dead. (Without any attack)

But I want my coin secure. The possibility of an attack is reason enough for me.
Shitcoins will not update their code. Most of them have no active development.
Like I said: Attacking a shitcoin is like killing a zombie. Nobody cares. Look at Apex.

Cheers,
Ray
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
Kaspa
yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own Wink
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
Wouldn't the destruction of shitty PoS coins be faster if you show everyone how to do it, than to spend your own resources?

He has shown how he owned APEX.
sr. member
Activity: 658
Merit: 250
Wouldn't the destruction of shitty PoS coins be faster if you show everyone how to do it, than to spend your own resources?
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
Agreed. But many other coins have it.
I am sure NXT is relatively safe against that kind of attack.

Interesting thread btw.

Cheers
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1001
CEO Bitpanda.com
Which POS implementation are you referring to Ray? There is a lot of vocabulary in you first paragraph that seems to imply Peercoin family. What is a matured coin?
Yes, I am talking about Peercoin derivates.
With matured I mean an aged block which is ready for minting.

Cheers,
Ray


NXT doesn't have such a system for example.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Ok. I can't answer for Peercoin family  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
Which POS implementation are you referring to Ray? There is a lot of vocabulary in you first paragraph that seems to imply Peercoin family. What is a matured coin?
Yes, I am talking about Peercoin derivates.
With matured I mean an aged block which is ready for minting.

Cheers,
Ray
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