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Topic: Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks - page 10. (Read 17268 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.


The whole point of crypto-coins is that they are safe from doublespend. If someone shows that they aren't, then he is doing a service to the cryptocurrency industry.

Crypto is still in early days. We are building bridges, and it's better for someone to stress test the bridges before they are declared safe for the general population. If these bridges are unsafe, I want to know now (even if I lose some money).

You'll notice that many who are invested in PoS coins want attacks to be attempted. Better it happen out in the open now rather than in secret in the future.

Also, his attacks don't seem to be destroying coins, just showing they aren't safe. No reason coins couldn't shore up their defenses after the attack, and come back stronger.

I agree with what you are saying. However, from reading his posts it doesn't seem like he is actually trying to be helpful. It seems more like a "look what I can do" kind of thing. Did the Apexcoin community, whatever there is of it, ask him to attack them? He supposedly successfully attacked Apexcoin, and now the crypto world knows there is a vulnerability in POS. Is there really a need to continue any further attacks? Attack all the dead coins you want, but leave legitimate coins alone.

Because a guy does something for his own reasons don't necessarily make it without merit on its own. I agree with you on his apparent motives, but as a POS afficionado, I'd still encourage guys like this because if they can do it, it shows a vulnerability that needs fixing.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000

Perhaps you read something that I missed then. In his OP he states his reasoning is because of the "quantity" of coins, not the "quality." Personally I see no reason to attack coins, especially ones that meet his own agenda and not the consensus of the entire crypto community. History has shown that most all shit coins will die natural deaths anyway. Let the herd cull itself instead of having some wannabe savior of the crypto world launch attacks on whatever coins he chooses.  

The whole point of crypto-coins is that they are safe from doublespend. If someone shows that they aren't, then he is doing a service to the cryptocurrency industry.

I agree. It's a fascinating topic.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 503
Monero Core Team
The real test for NXT will come if someone sets up a ponzi using NXT.
There are NXT ponzi on a regular basis.

We should never forget one thing: We are fighting against the system (banks and governments) - we are not fighting against decentralized digital currencies, am I right?

Exactly. United we stand, divided we fall - the coming rise of cryptofiat
While we are partying, the real competition1 is readying its weapons...
[...] A friend used the word of "crypto-balkanization". That's exactly it.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1046
Let's create a Hackcoin.

Everyone who is interested in POS security can download the wallet.
Everyone who is interested in hacking can play around with it.
The results could be useful for every honest coin.

We should never forget one thing: We are fighting against the system (banks and governments) - we are not fighting against decentralized digital currencies, am I right?

Some of us believe in what we are doing. The destruction of a random coin isn't the solution.

Cheers,
Ray
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001

Has there been any actual proof of your attacks or are you just posting "successfull" messages and everyone is supposed to believe it ?
I'm with most people here. Attack a relatively active NXT clone or fork, show proof and then we can talk.

Bittrex confirmed his APEX attack.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10169983

Good to know...thanks for posting that.
Alright then...let's see how easy it is with a more active coin.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116

Has there been any actual proof of your attacks or are you just posting "successfull" messages and everyone is supposed to believe it ?
I'm with most people here. Attack a relatively active NXT clone or fork, show proof and then we can talk.

Bittrex confirmed his APEX attack.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10169983

What's next? This is very popcorn
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha

Has there been any actual proof of your attacks or are you just posting "successfull" messages and everyone is supposed to believe it ?
I'm with most people here. Attack a relatively active NXT clone or fork, show proof and then we can talk.

Bittrex confirmed his APEX attack.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10169983
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500

I'm with most people here. Attack a relatively active NXT clone or fork, show proof and then we can talk.
nkt nakamatodark is a hybrid and low market. I'm curious to know if it can handle the stress.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
lots of people complain about the quantity of coins and how the forum is flooded... some proposed ideas to clean it up....
I'll show you how it's done - I'll start attacking weak coins accelerating their death

just wait and see the results, I'll soon show the first victim. Let's start with PoS coins: some people think you need 51% of the supply but this is bs, you need only a very little % if you just want to do a single double spend.

the point of this thread is to see how people react to this: I won't steal from anyone, but some may lose "money".

Some questions:

1. is this a good idea?
2. would you donate so I can attack more POS coins? (maybe spare some coins you are bagholding)
3. would you pay to know the time of the attack and the victim in advance?
4. would you pay for "double spend as a service" (in this case you decide coin and the timing of the attack)?
5. is this legal?
6. do you think someone would pay to have me killed?

go!

update: apexcoin attack successful witih 0,07% of available supply

1. yes
2. no but I'm sure there would be rewards if you show weaknesses
3. no (and frankly, fuck you for offering that)
4. see 3
5. prob impossible to tell as with many things in the crypto-sphere
6. neeehh - prob not.

Has there been any actual proof of your attacks or are you just posting "successfull" messages and everyone is supposed to believe it ?
I'm with most people here. Attack a relatively active NXT clone or fork, show proof and then we can talk.
full member
Activity: 229
Merit: 100
I think it would be usefull if he works with developers to show the weakness in coins and try to find a solution for that.

To play "god" and decide to kill a coin has no use at all, unless you know that some developer is a known scammer and want to stop him from scamming people.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Official Zeitcoin community ambassador


The whole point of crypto-coins is that they are safe from doublespend. If someone shows that they aren't, then he is doing a service to the cryptocurrency industry.

Crypto is still in early days. We are building bridges, and it's better for someone to stress test the bridges before they are declared safe for the general population. If these bridges are unsafe, I want to know now (even if I lose some money).

You'll notice that many who are invested in PoS coins want attacks to be attempted. Better it happen out in the open now rather than in secret in the future.

Also, his attacks don't seem to be destroying coins, just showing they aren't safe. No reason coins couldn't shore up their defenses after the attack, and come back stronger.

I agree with what you are saying. However, from reading his posts it doesn't seem like he is actually trying to be helpful. It seems more like a "look what I can do" kind of thing. Did the Apexcoin community, whatever there is of it, ask him to attack them? He supposedly successfully attacked Apexcoin, and now the crypto world knows there is a vulnerability in POS. Is there really a need to continue any further attacks? Attack all the dead coins you want, but leave legitimate coins alone.
full member
Activity: 237
Merit: 100

Perhaps you read something that I missed then. In his OP he states his reasoning is because of the "quantity" of coins, not the "quality." Personally I see no reason to attack coins, especially ones that meet his own agenda and not the consensus of the entire crypto community. History has shown that most all shit coins will die natural deaths anyway. Let the herd cull itself instead of having some wannabe savior of the crypto world launch attacks on whatever coins he chooses.  

The whole point of crypto-coins is that they are safe from doublespend. If someone shows that they aren't, then he is doing a service to the cryptocurrency industry.

Crypto is still in early days. We are building bridges, and it's better for someone to stress test the bridges before they are declared safe for the general population. If these bridges are unsafe, I want to know now (even if I lose some money).

You'll notice that many who are invested in PoS coins want attacks to be attempted. Better it happen out in the open now rather than in secret in the future.

Also, his attacks don't seem to be destroying coins, just showing they aren't safe. No reason coins couldn't shore up their defenses after the attack, and come back stronger.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Official Zeitcoin community ambassador


Your first paragraph was my original response. But I read past the first 3 sentences and realized that this is a valid cause. The bad coins should be attacked. This is noble work. It's not done out of malice or a general hatred, but to cull the herd or at least toughen the coins that remain standing after the attacks.

Hopefully the OP will share his findings and we will learn more about PoS crypto. I'm very interested in the results.


Perhaps you read something that I missed then. In his OP he states his reasoning is because of the "quantity" of coins, not the "quality." Personally I see no reason to attack coins, especially ones that meet his own agenda and not the consensus of the entire crypto community. History has shown that most all shit coins will die natural deaths anyway. Let the herd cull itself instead of having some wannabe savior of the crypto world launch attacks on whatever coins he chooses.   
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
The "Second Pirate Savings and Trust" attack on Proof-of-Stake. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10182752

Nothing about that "attack" necessitates proof of stake.

If it was a real attack, why don't you do it and prove it like the OP has done with apex? I'll tell you why: because it won't work. Show us the money or STFU.


If one reads the whole attack there is a Proof of Stake specific part and a countermeasure. The countermeasure is the reason I am not launching the attack. Proof of Stake can work, but only with the help of the state. The OP's attack for example could be used as the Proof of Stake specific part / exit strategy so could any other attack on a POS coin that requires stake.

Edit: This is no different from the fiat system Take the state out of the equation and it collapses. This is what nearly happened in 2008. Banks are for the most part proof of stake organizations.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
The "Second Pirate Savings and Trust" attack on Proof-of-Stake. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10182752

Nothing about that "attack" necessitates proof of stake.

If it was a real attack, why don't you do it and prove it like the OP has done with apex? I'll tell you why: because it won't work. Show us the money or STFU.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
The "Second Pirate Savings and Trust" attack on Proof-of-Stake. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10182752
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
I have a valid question, that I'm surprised no one has asked yet. What gives you the right to decide that any coin at all needs to be attacked? It shouldn't matter what your opinion is of any particular coin, there are people who have money tied up in those coins, and you are bragging about having the ability to kill those coins and cause people to lose their money. The fact that you are publicly posting this threat is either incredibly bold, or incredibly stupid.

If however the point you are trying to make is to be some way beneficial to the devs and can be used to strengthen the block chains to prevent attacks like this from happening, then more power to you.

Your first paragraph was my original response. But I read past the first 3 sentences and realized that this is a valid cause. The bad coins should be attacked. This is noble work. It's not done out of malice or a general hatred, but to cull the herd or at least toughen the coins that remain standing after the attacks.

Hopefully the OP will share his findings and we will learn more about PoS crypto. I'm very interested in the results.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
I suggest you read through the thread.

I don't particularly like that investors may loose money over this but its far better than the alternative which is the OP having enough initial funds to really do damage to a larger coin and then keeping the exploit secret.

if OP can successfully demonstrate an exploit on a coin with a larger market cap then all the power to him because it will lead to change for the better.


Explain how an exploit works is all that is needed to get some coins to make changes.
Then it falls to the coin community to make the change or risk the damages.

Example:
A Guy tells you it is not safe to fall out of a 5 story floor.

Do you think he has the right to push you out of the window of that 5 story floor to prove it to the other people in the office.

Informing is good, causing harm to prove the point is wrong , if you can't see the difference.
Then you have your own issues to deal with.

 Cool
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
People should be afraid of POS. It is at a very fundamental level no different from Apple, or a wall street bank, without the safety net provided by the government regulators.

You somehow managed to completely miss the point of cryptocurrencies.

Quote
POS is a bad emulation of wall street. POW is a good emulation of gold.

Yes, because gold miners can double-spend the gold they own.
I'm starting to think you're posting drunk.
hero member
Activity: 750
Merit: 500
Just what we need after Bitcoin is crashing and people are afraid of hacking, make people afraid of alts and Bitcoin, so they use Apple Pay. Brilliant.

If there are vulnerabilities, maybe inform legit people of them so they can try to repair them, instead of running some new scam?

People should be afraid of POS. It is at a very fundamental level no different from Apple, or a wall street bank, without the safety net provided by the government regulators. POS is a bad emulation of wall street. POW is a good emulation of gold.

Edit: This is not as simple as a code vulnerability that a dev can fix. It is very fundamental.

POW is less safe than POS, because all you need is over 51% mining and you can double spend .
Miners start dropping off as POW mining no longer keeps their profit margin high enough.
POS miners profit margin to stake does not force them to shut down like a POW miner.

If all of us trust government , there would be no cryptocoins.
Cryptocoins exist because less people trust their governments everyday.

 Cool

I suggest you read through the thread.

I don't particularly like that investors may loose money over this but its far better than the alternative which is the OP having enough initial funds to really do damage to a larger coin and then keeping the exploit secret.

if OP can successfully demonstrate an exploit on a coin with a larger market cap then all the power to him because it will lead to change for the better.

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