Topic: Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks - page 6. (Read 17227 times)
January 19, 2015, 02:21:41 PM
Which POS implementation are you referring to Ray? There is a lot of vocabulary in you first paragraph that seems to imply Peercoin family. What is a matured coin?
January 19, 2015, 02:15:48 PM
I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush 
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?
When you find the right moment, 51% is not much. Attacker can close the mint lock and wait.
Most POS coins have an indication showing if blocks are ready. You need one single block with a high amount of matured coins.
You can check that in coincontrol, so no additional coding is needed for this hack.
Question: Is this possible?
If the network is able to detect such a superstaking, it can prohibit or shift transactions.
Network could calculate the average difficulty of the last X blocks or since the last checkpoint +-15%. Everything above is not valid and transactions or the confirmation process have to wait till the diff get normalized. The attacker (or the stakeholder) would get his interest, but that's all.
Cheers,
Ray
January 19, 2015, 01:33:38 PM
Bolded
Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?
Yes, that's it.
Some simple questions about nxt so I don't have to look them up:
1) Is transparent forging really implemented? I thought not
The part that allows you to predict the next block is, you should be able to confirm this yourself using the tool above. TF is several interlocking bits so you can't really pick a point and say "that's when TF began". And not all of it is implemented yet.
2) Is https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt the latest source code? if not, where do I find it? do I really have to decompile Java?
I believe so. Every version ships with the source code in the 'src' folder so you could use that for the latest version. Not sure it is in as usable format though
3) If account A transfers some amount to account B (which was already verified) at block N, can B use that stake to forge block N+1? if not, when will it become part of B's effective balance?
You have to wait for N+1440 blocks before it counts in B's effective balance again. You can't broadcast a transaction, move the Nxt, broadcast again in the next block in a new account, move, broadcast move etc. using the same NXT.
4) Is re-leasing possible? if A leases to B, can B re-lease to C without approval from A?
No
5) which is the best place to ask these questions? nxtforums? which section?
Nxtforum is best.
Technical general questions: https://nxtforum.org/general/
Transparent Forging: https://nxtforum.org/transparent-forging/
Thanks!
You're welcome. Keep it up!
I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?
Yes, that's it.
Some simple questions about nxt so I don't have to look them up:
1) Is transparent forging really implemented? I thought not
The part that allows you to predict the next block is, you should be able to confirm this yourself using the tool above. TF is several interlocking bits so you can't really pick a point and say "that's when TF began". And not all of it is implemented yet.
2) Is https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt the latest source code? if not, where do I find it? do I really have to decompile Java?
I believe so. Every version ships with the source code in the 'src' folder so you could use that for the latest version. Not sure it is in as usable format though
3) If account A transfers some amount to account B (which was already verified) at block N, can B use that stake to forge block N+1? if not, when will it become part of B's effective balance?
You have to wait for N+1440 blocks before it counts in B's effective balance again. You can't broadcast a transaction, move the Nxt, broadcast again in the next block in a new account, move, broadcast move etc. using the same NXT.
4) Is re-leasing possible? if A leases to B, can B re-lease to C without approval from A?
No
5) which is the best place to ask these questions? nxtforums? which section?
Nxtforum is best.
Technical general questions: https://nxtforum.org/general/
Transparent Forging: https://nxtforum.org/transparent-forging/
Thanks!
You're welcome. Keep it up!
January 19, 2015, 01:20:49 PM
I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?
Yes, that's it.
Some simple questions about nxt so I don't have to look them up:
1) Is transparent forging really implemented? I thought not
2) Is https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt the latest source code? if not, where do I find it? do I really have to decompile Java?
3) If account A transfers some amount to account B (which was already verified) at block N, can B use that stake to forge block N+1? if not, when will it become part of B's effective balance?
4) Is re-leasing possible? if A leases to B, can B re-lease to C without approval from A?
5) which is the best place to ask these questions? nxtforums? which section?
Thanks!
January 19, 2015, 12:52:07 PM
I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?
January 19, 2015, 11:40:51 AM
hi achim 
I assumed 457 mio. = 45.7% = total forging stake
therefore 23% of (total) stake = enough to make 51% of total forging stake
(Could be that this math is completely wrong... and since I need to run and achimsmile is way smarter anyway...
all you readers listen to what he says)
I assumed 457 mio. = 45.7% = total forging stake
therefore 23% of (total) stake = enough to make 51% of total forging stake
(Could be that this math is completely wrong... and since I need to run and achimsmile is way smarter anyway...
all you readers listen to what he says)
Yes, all clear now. Sorry, my nickname sucks on bct
January 19, 2015, 11:30:11 AM
I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."
I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.
January 19, 2015, 11:24:35 AM
hi achim
I assumed 457 mio. = 45.7% = total forging stake
therefore 23% of (total) stake = enough to make 51% of total forging stake
(Could be that this math is completely wrong... and since I need to run and achimsmile is way smarter anyway...
all you readers listen to what he says)
I assumed 457 mio. = 45.7% = total forging stake
therefore 23% of (total) stake = enough to make 51% of total forging stake
(Could be that this math is completely wrong... and since I need to run and achimsmile is way smarter anyway...
all you readers listen to what he says)
January 19, 2015, 11:19:02 AM
preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
Please provide more details.
Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack. (source for forging stake number: http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=160)
I think current amount forging is more like 45,7% atm
Quote
Curr. Avg. Peer Forging : 457,058,786 NXT
January 19, 2015, 11:16:02 AM
preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
Please provide more details.
Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack. (source for forging stake number: http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=160)
January 19, 2015, 10:53:43 AM
preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
The Nxt network predicts who is next to forge (aka Transparent Forging). How did you get around this?
If the network sees you are forging blocks when it isn't your turn, then the rest of the network will blacklist you (at least this is the last implementation I know of) and automatically reject your bad blocks.
You can see Transparent Forging live in action here: http://188.138.33.10/
This picture shows potential forgers sorted in chronological order (red ones are those who skipped their turn).
January 19, 2015, 10:48:56 AM
preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....
January 19, 2015, 06:51:35 AM
Actually I have seen DMD around and have poked through their Github a few times over the last few months. I noticed that they have been doing work on their code quite regularly and I think I remember seeing them doing a couple promotional things earlier on as well, some celebration of Block halving and some statistics. I don't think I've seen anything negative about DMD and they've been around for like 8-9 months, mostly low-key stuff. Looks like interest is starting to pick up around DMD, maybe it's a "Diamond in The Rough"?
Please don't attack DMD.
I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit:
I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit:
January 19, 2015, 06:35:57 AM
Please don't attack DMD.
I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit:
Visit us: cloudmining.bit.diamonds
for terms & conditions Email us: [email protected]
I am not a Registered Investment Advisor, Broker/Dealer, Financial Analyst, Financial Bank, Securities Broker or Financial Planner. The Information is provided for information purposes only. The Information is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice or any other advice, is general in nature and not specific to you. Before using this information to make an investment decision, you should seek the advice of a qualified and registered securities professional and undertake your own due diligence. None of the information is intended as investment advice, as an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell, or as a recommendation, endorsement, or sponsorship of any security, Company, or fund. DMD Diamond is not a regulated investment vehicle. DMD Diamond, like all crypto currencies, is experimental in nature and should be considered and treated with appropriate caution. There is no central point of control or representative entity, DMD Diamond is a distributed decentralized peer-to-peer currency and commodity. Consult a licensed professional financial advisor before making any investment decisions. I am not responsible for any investment decision made by you. You are responsible for your own investment research and investment decisions.
I just unvested $10,000 in this sweet deal, which is totally legit:
Visit us: cloudmining.bit.diamonds
for terms & conditions Email us: [email protected]
I am not a Registered Investment Advisor, Broker/Dealer, Financial Analyst, Financial Bank, Securities Broker or Financial Planner. The Information is provided for information purposes only. The Information is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice or any other advice, is general in nature and not specific to you. Before using this information to make an investment decision, you should seek the advice of a qualified and registered securities professional and undertake your own due diligence. None of the information is intended as investment advice, as an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell, or as a recommendation, endorsement, or sponsorship of any security, Company, or fund. DMD Diamond is not a regulated investment vehicle. DMD Diamond, like all crypto currencies, is experimental in nature and should be considered and treated with appropriate caution. There is no central point of control or representative entity, DMD Diamond is a distributed decentralized peer-to-peer currency and commodity. Consult a licensed professional financial advisor before making any investment decisions. I am not responsible for any investment decision made by you. You are responsible for your own investment research and investment decisions.
January 19, 2015, 06:28:44 AM
@DoM P:
APEX coin seems to have been the victim.
Attack confirmed by bittrex: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10169983
APEX coin seems to have been the victim.
Attack confirmed by bittrex: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10169983
January 19, 2015, 06:24:15 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, and I have a question that may already be answered before:
Has cynicSOB, the creator of this thread, been able to prove a PoS currency can be attacked by actually doing so, or is this whole thread another joke from a wannabe hacker?
Has cynicSOB, the creator of this thread, been able to prove a PoS currency can be attacked by actually doing so, or is this whole thread another joke from a wannabe hacker?
January 19, 2015, 05:11:30 AM
Split/combine threshold at 200,000 coins at 10 days
wtf is this? are you restricting splitting coins? this restricts valid use cases of a currency...
By the way you describe your attack, the result would cause financial detriment to you since you would be paying tens of thousands in fees but Stakers would also get all those Coins plus 10% more!.
why pay a lot in fees? the splitting is done in only one transaction. PPC destroys fees, they don't go to the stakers, but others do distribute the fees...
Too much splitting of Coins causes a very large amount of Bloat, this restricts the lower end of blocks being split so your reward is always more than the cost to combine.
Coins shouldn't be destroyed in transactions because that restricts the amount of active Coins in circulation
January 19, 2015, 04:45:39 AM
But of course it has the risk of splitting the network and it won't help against this short-range attack.
I hereby pledge 20k Nxt if you can pull off your attack on the Nxt testnet.
Conditions:
You get 10% of all testnxt
at least 30% of all testnxt has to be forging during your attack
Reorg must be 20 blocks or more
Reorg has to be verified by multiple parties
Please post here for testnxt: https://nxtforum.org/testnet/some-testnxt-to-test-asset-exchange
January 19, 2015, 04:25:32 AM
Welcome to have a try attack to NXT. 
January 19, 2015, 02:56:50 AM
The alert system, the github account and the checkpoint system is centralized and controlled by a few people.
Alert/Checkpointing was the idea of SN (Szabono Nickoshi) - that guy who was premining 1M of his coins. Please tell me, what makes Bitcoin/Altcoin decentralized under these circumstances?
It's like democracy - a big lie.
Cheers
Alert/Checkpointing was the idea of SN (Szabono Nickoshi) - that guy who was premining 1M of his coins. Please tell me, what makes Bitcoin/Altcoin decentralized under these circumstances?
It's like democracy - a big lie.
Cheers
Jump to: