Topic: [Closed] Black Arrow's Avalon (Read 6348 times)
The dealings thrive if they win the two sides only.
This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
Fallacy.You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
Just because you can run a profitable venture with 60 gold mining pick axes does not mean you "automatically will" as a company. You might wish to sell it to others who will put it to that end use.
A real world example is ASICMiner. When their blades were profitable they seemingly couldn't house all of the blades they produced at their farm. They sold units and/or ran them until they could grow and expand their mining farm. They turned to selling them to fund their operations.
======================
Either way, the Logic (if you want to call it that) that BlackArrow uses is broken in such an obvious way...it's not even funny.
You can't sell mining equipment above what it actually produces in a reasonable period of time. It would entirely defeat the purpose of mining.
Is there something in the drinking water these days or is it me?
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
A argument that does not apply.BlackArrow is not developing anything. They are simply cloning hardware where all the work has been done. Their expended effort is minimal compared to what the Avalon Team had to put into it. They literally have it put in front of them on a silver platter.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
That is some very concerning bullshit you are posting there.I made plenty profit. Again, is there something in the drinking water that I should know about?
Do you people even think before you type? Sorry, but seriously.
Your arguments are usually right on the spot, but this is not the case.
ASIC miner hardware is hugely overpriced and doesn't allow any kind of ROI, so you are actually confirming what I'm saying with your example.
You probably have made plenty of profit with an Avalon batch 1, as you were an investor: Avalon needed your money to develop and manufacture its units, there were no guarantees no prototypes whatsoever, the delivery was expected +3 months after payment, and for all these reasons batch 1 customers/investors were offered such a good deal.
This is true. But there are/were contradictory statements from Team Avalon. (depending on how you read into it)On the one hand, they said:
--If they failed to produce, then they would refund everyone.
Though how do you do that if you don't dip into pre-order funds? How do you refund someone if you consume the cash? (Business insurance of some type?)
--At Bitcoin 2013 Yifu (from Team Avalon) made mention that they used crowd sourcing. Though he wasn't specific on what he meant by that. (infer as needed)
Again, you are confirming my point with your example. Nobody is going to sell you immediately available money minting machines for less money they will likely mint, unless you have a rare case where a company's production capabilities are vastly superior to their deployment capabilities. Even in that case, as per ASIC miner, they will try to price the units so selling them will be at least as profitable as mining with them (as ASIC miner did), making ROI unlikely for the customer.
A properly funded company doesn't need "crowd sourcing". Usually they will go to 1 or more investor(s), pitch the idea, and if the the VC thinks it is viable they take most of the risk to get a product to market.When the product is fully developed, then they put it on sale. (of course most bitcoin companies are shady at best...keep that in mind!)
So the exception (the bitcoin community) is not actually the rule.
The current crop of companies are all (one might say BFL isn't but I am extremely skeptical) based on crowd sourcing. So they push the risk unto their buyers.
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To get to the heart of your argument, I think a company can sell shovels to miners without charging the weight of the shovel in gold.
Or
They can charge the shovels weight in gold and thereby burn all the potential customers that are stupid enough to buy the shovels at that price. (bad business model!)
That's what we are going to get with ASIC, we better get used to it.
We don't have to get used to it. We can change it.If you point it out to the dummies of the world that they don't have to be financially raped at the online counter, then people will wise up. Companies like BlackArrow who want to sell a Shovel Clone® will be annoyed by people like me warning people about the financial rape.
People like BlackArrow will either stop the financial rape at the counter, or close their doors down. So far, it looks like they chose to close their doors. In another thread, a member by the name of Yantis wanted to sell 3 or 4 of his 17 or 18 Avalons.
Now everyone knew the price was absurd (250 BTC per Avalon), but did they know by how much? Well a graphic or two later and all illusions were wiped clean. The seller wasn't comfortable in selling his Avalons for far less, so he seemingly called it quits. He himself did not honestly seem to know how much or how little his own Avalon were projected to make in the near future.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/wts-71-ghs-avalon-unit-in-hand-overnight-shipping-234614
He asked for the template so he could evaluate his own circumstance.
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ASICs can be sold at sane prices. There is nothing stopping it from happening. It is entirely beneficial for Mining hardware companies to sell their hardware at profitable (to the buyer) rates.
Doubly so, if they are merely a straightforward clone maker.
Once a specific mining platform is no longer profitable to produce or sell (by either buyer or seller) there needs to be a model to replace it. Not keep selling it at a price point that benefits the seller and dooms the buyer.
We don't mine BitCoins so we can pass our wealth on to the clone manufacturer.
This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
I think you've pretty much nailed it there (and the math appears to support it lol)!
This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
Fallacy.You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
Just because you can run a profitable venture with 60 gold mining pick axes does not mean you "automatically will" as a company. You might wish to sell it to others who will put it to that end use.
A real world example is ASICMiner. When their blades were profitable they seemingly couldn't house all of the blades they produced at their farm. They sold units and/or ran them until they could grow and expand their mining farm. They turned to selling them to fund their operations.
======================
Either way, the Logic (if you want to call it that) that BlackArrow uses is broken in such an obvious way...it's not even funny.
You can't sell mining equipment above what it actually produces in a reasonable period of time. It would entirely defeat the purpose of mining.
Is there something in the drinking water these days or is it me?
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
A argument that does not apply.BlackArrow is not developing anything. They are simply cloning hardware where all the work has been done. Their expended effort is minimal compared to what the Avalon Team had to put into it. They literally have it put in front of them on a silver platter.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
That is some very concerning bullshit you are posting there.I made plenty profit. Again, is there something in the drinking water that I should know about?
Do you people even think before you type? Sorry, but seriously.
Your arguments are usually right on the spot, but this is not the case.
ASIC miner hardware is hugely overpriced and doesn't allow any kind of ROI, so you are actually confirming what I'm saying with your example.
You probably have made plenty of profit with an Avalon batch 1, as you were an investor: Avalon needed your money to develop and manufacture its units, there were no guarantees no prototypes whatsoever, the delivery was expected +3 months after payment, and for all these reasons batch 1 customers/investors were offered such a good deal.
Again, you are confirming my point with your example. Nobody is going to sell you immediately available money minting machines for less money they will likely mint, unless you have a rare case where a company's production capabilities are vastly superior to their deployment capabilities. Even in that case, as per ASIC miner, they will try to price the units so selling them will be at least as profitable as mining with them (as ASIC miner did), making ROI unlikely for the customer.
That's what we are going to get with ASIC, we better get used to it.
This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
Fallacy.You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
Just because you can run a profitable venture with 60 gold mining pick axes does not mean you "automatically will" as a company. You might wish to sell it to others who will put it to that end use.
A real world example is ASICMiner. When their blades were profitable they seemingly couldn't house all of the blades they produced at their farm. They sold units and/or ran them until they could grow and expand their mining farm. They turned to selling them to fund their operations.
======================
Either way, the Logic (if you want to call it that) that BlackArrow uses is broken in such an obvious way...it's not even funny.
You can't sell mining equipment above what it actually produces in a reasonable period of time. It would entirely defeat the purpose of mining.
Is there something in the drinking water these days or is it me?
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
A argument that does not apply.BlackArrow is not developing anything. They are simply cloning hardware where all the work has been done. Their expended effort is minimal compared to what the Avalon Team had to put into it. They literally have it put in front of them on a silver platter.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
That is some very concerning bullshit you are posting there.I made plenty profit. Again, is there something in the drinking water that I should know about?
Do you people even think before you type? Sorry, but seriously.
You are obviously not in hardware business and you are obviously unaware of the prices involved in running one. Also you are unaware of the cost of manufacturing an Avalon.
FYI we did not threw our toys nor shut down our venture we just came to the conclusion that it is more profitable to mine with the Avalon clones ourselves than making a profit by selling them to customers.
Simple as this.
So either your sourcing for parts is absurdly high (and therefore you shouldn't be in business) or you are making it seem as if you can't lower your prices. Since I didn't fall off the turnip truck and have an Avalon that was produced with less than a 6th of what your offering costs....with all sorts of real development costs added...that means you are giving out a lie.
I just found out you are still selling FPGA's to folks. Man, not even BFL sells FPGA's anymore.
It is pretty much normal that a business not turn a profit for the first couple of years isn't it?
So even if your mining gear won't pay for itself for a couple of years that is still maybe a reasonable deal from a normal business viewpoint?
If your equipment has paid for itself a couple of years down the road but still works, isn't that actually pretty darn good?
-MarkM-
So even if your mining gear won't pay for itself for a couple of years that is still maybe a reasonable deal from a normal business viewpoint?
If your equipment has paid for itself a couple of years down the road but still works, isn't that actually pretty darn good?
-MarkM-
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does no exist, and will never exist.
one of the best statements, that I ever read on this forum. (ironically)
He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.
Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?
Great advice!
I am pointing out that the days when bitcoins were pouring from mining into peoples pockets are over. Everyone should just adjust to this.
If your clone won't produce a profit at your particular price point, then you are the one who has to adjust your prices. Period.
This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.
The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.
Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
I don't. He made a fortune with his Avalon already.
He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.
It wouldn't be because you are trying to make a fortune by selling avalon clones which may not even cost you 1,300USD to produce as a clone manufacturer?
42 clones right? @ 7600 USD = 319,200 dollars...for 42 clones.
At todays rate it would be about 3192 BTC.
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All this sold to your potential "customers" as a profitable upgrades....except it isn't.
Do I have a reason to be as upset as you who...rather than lower your prices...end up apparently throwing your toys out of the pram and shut down your venture? Did you even try to negotiate?
Reading the OP, it looks like you weren't satisfied with 7600 as it was your absolute baseline price. Instead, you were fishing for an even higher price...what the market will bear (in apparent ignorance).
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What I would love to hear from you is a straightforward statement that you were absolutely shocked...even surprised...to learn that the unit you were selling @ the price point above were going to be absolutely unprofitable. Surely you didn't know this...until just now....
So far one clone manufacturer (HashTech) has (extremely recently) changed their pre-order policy for their clones. 1 BTC as a down payment and lowered their 12.99 BTC price per module to 8.99 BTC. Just a little over a 30% reduction. That includes the PDU and a control unit.
That means HashTech (as one example) will (if the community likes it) receive customers if the price is viable to miners. While you (Black Arrow) apparently won't be offering clones to the community at a "useful price point".
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2483687
You are obviously not in hardware business and you are obviously unaware of the prices involved in running one. Also you are unaware of the cost of manufacturing an Avalon.
FYI we did not threw our toys nor shut down our venture we just came to the conclusion that it is more profitable to mine with the Avalon clones ourselves than making a profit by selling them to customers.
Simple as this.
He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.
Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?
Great advice!
I am pointing out that the days when bitcoins were pouring from mining into peoples pockets are over. Everyone should just adjust to this.
He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.
Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?
Great advice!
This.
He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.
Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?
Great advice!
This.
No,
Good [and ethical] business is where you sell a product that you can profit from [AND] profits society in some way.
Be it a 40 ton earthmover or a bucket that moves water like it is supposed to.
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Making a profit by selling a product that won't do what the customer originally intends to do with it is at worst a scam. At best, a bad business practice and a bad buy.
Good [and ethical] business is where you sell a product that you can profit from [AND] profits society in some way.
Be it a 40 ton earthmover or a bucket that moves water like it is supposed to.
-------------------------
Making a profit by selling a product that won't do what the customer originally intends to do with it is at worst a scam. At best, a bad business practice and a bad buy.
Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.
My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections.
Mis-representing ROI is unethical.
[...]
Are we on same page?
[...]
Are we on same page?
Looks like you're both saying the same thing in different words...
Turtle83:
Our definition of ethical is different I suppose, I'll just leave it at that..
Our definition of ethical is different I suppose, I'll just leave it at that..
Well said Puerto.
Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.
But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.
Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.
But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.
That sounds very socialist. I don't see anything wrong in selling products at prices customers are willing to pay... Perfectly good business. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head and forcing them to buy at ridiculous prices.
Whats really wrong is lying about shipping dates(BFL style) or product specifications.
Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.
My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections.
They are screwing their customers to make a boatload of money, under the pretense that the customer is going to make all this money from their magic money printing machines.
They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?
It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?
Mis-representing ROI is unethical.
Assume "magic miner" does 65 GH/s.
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. You can pay your mortgage and buy a yatch. Buy buy!" - Scammer tag
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. You can make 127.6 BTC in 2 months. Buy buy!" - Evil
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. You can make 127.6 BTC in 2 months at current difficulty. Buy buy!" - Borderline evil. Buyer now has a hint to study about difficulty. If someone is buying something for investment purpose, its their responsibility to study these things.
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. It does 65 GH/s for sha256 based coins. Buy buy!" - Perfectly good business.
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. It does 65 GH/s for sha256 based coins. It will make ROI in x months based on
Are we on same page?
My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections. They are screwing their customers to make a boatload of money, under the pretense that the customer is going to make all this money from their magic money printing machines.
They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?
It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?
They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?
It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?
This is exactly what I've been saying about Asicminer. Well put though, same thing applies here.
Well said Puerto.
Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.
But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.
Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.
But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.
That sounds very socialist. I don't see anything wrong in selling products at prices customers are willing to pay... Perfectly good business. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head and forcing them to buy at ridiculous prices.
Whats really wrong is lying about shipping dates(BFL style) or product specifications.
Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.
My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections. They are screwing their customers to make a boatload of money, under the pretense that the customer is going to make all this money from their magic money printing machines.
They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?
It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?
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