Colored Coins and Coinprism takes Bitcoin to a whole new level - page 5.

iraszl

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Quote from: bluemeanie1 on May 14, 2014, 11:21:23 PM

no your thinking is off. Color Coins and Counterparty create an INCENTIVE to create many many more transactions that don't have a strict BTC value.

all these discussions already took place on the BitcoinX list.

-bm

You mean killing Bitcoin just for the sake of it or to piss off bitcoiners for the price of a few dollars wasn't enough incentive?

iraszl

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Quote from: Peter R on May 14, 2014, 11:10:11 PM

@bish5555 and @iraszl

I sent each of you one worthless token (1 WTC). I only have 8 left because I only issued 10. So these things are rare lol Cheesy

Got it, thanks! It's interesting because you sent it to my Owl Coin address and now it's listed under that account. I didn't realize that can be done.

People are sending each other all kinds of coins. I got 100,000 USDollars too: https://www.coinprism.com/blockchain/color/34zK2mBo4uQFZ5Daqgb8JngnBNrKgPnKzE Sharing the wealth! Cheesy

You can ask for Gold Colored Coins here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/25lct9/colored_coins_give_away_btcblue/

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

Quote from: iraszl on May 14, 2014, 11:18:19 PM

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on May 14, 2014, 10:35:36 PM

Color Coins is going to overload the block chain and cause major problems with the core bitcoin features.

-bm

Interesting question.

If Colored Coins could choke Bitcoin it means the anybody can do such an attack regardless of Colored Coins. I think that's why we have the 540 Satoshi dust limit.

My understanding is that currently there is a 7 transaction per second limit on Bitcoin, that means if you send 5,000+ transactions in 10 minutes it would go beyond the limit. You can do 5,000 transactions for just 0.027 BTC.

no your thinking is off. Color Coins and Counterparty create an INCENTIVE to create many many more transactions that don't have a strict BTC value.

all these discussions already took place on the BitcoinX list.

-bm

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

Quote from: thezerg on May 14, 2014, 11:16:38 PM

Peter send me a WTK! 13sC6RxsHGkvaUWeyG6X295GHoVXPux8Ug

bluemeanie1: Hopefully Bitcoin CAN scale, because THIS is the true promise of the blockchain. Entire industries whose primary purpose is to hold your stocks and bonds will no longer be necessary, which will significantly increase the efficiency of the financial system.

Bitcoin was not designed to do this.

while some see this as an 'innovation' other see it as abuse. Lets see what happens when the number of transactions multiplies by a factor of a 1000.

-bm

Peter R

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Quote from: thezerg on May 14, 2014, 11:16:38 PM

Peter send me a WTK! 13sC6RxsHGkvaUWeyG6X295GHoVXPux8Ug

1 WTK has been sent to 13sC6RxsHGkvaUWeyG6X295GHoVXPux8Ug!

iraszl

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Quote from: bluemeanie1 on May 14, 2014, 10:35:36 PM

Color Coins is going to overload the block chain and cause major problems with the core bitcoin features.

-bm

Interesting question.

If Colored Coins could choke Bitcoin it means the anybody can do such an attack regardless of Colored Coins. I think that's why we have the 540 Satoshi dust limit.

My understanding is that currently there is a 7 transaction per second limit on Bitcoin, that means if you send 5,000+ transactions in 10 minutes it would go beyond the limit. You can do 5,000 transactions for just 0.027 BTC.

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

Quote from: Peter R on May 14, 2014, 11:14:10 PM

Quote from: bluemeanie1 on May 14, 2014, 11:04:46 PM

...

Foo coins are becoming irrelevant.

-bm

thezerg

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Peter send me a WTK! 13sC6RxsHGkvaUWeyG6X295GHoVXPux8Ug

bluemeanie1: Hopefully Bitcoin CAN scale, because THIS is the true promise of the blockchain. Entire industries whose primary purpose is to hold your stocks and bonds will no longer be necessary, which will significantly increase the efficiency of the financial system.

Some other questions:

When I create a colored coin (it gave me an error BTW), how is my description (read contract) and other info about the coin stored on the blockchain?

I know its probably not in the client yet, but WRT the protocol, can I send a small amount of BTC to every address that holds my coin (think interest payment)?

Peter R

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Quote from: bluemeanie1 on May 14, 2014, 11:04:46 PM

...

Foo coins are becoming irrelevant.

Peter R

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@bish5555 and @iraszl

I sent each of you one worthless token (1 WTC). I only have 8 left because I only issued 10. So these things are rare lol Cheesy

I didn't notice that there is a drop-down menu in the "Amount" field on the "Send Coins" tab. This is where you can switch from BTC to the various colored coins.

If anyone else wants a worthless token, get a Coinprism wallet, post your address, and I'll send you one.

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

we had discussed these issues on the BitcoinX list but the Color Coin boosters didn't seem to care.

the number of transactions are going to multiply exponentially according to number of colors and the basic structure of Bitcoin cannot compensate. Fact is Mastercoin ALREADY had this issue and seems everyone forgot. Add to this issue that we have several exchanges all running on one block chain(Color Coins, Counterparty, Disastercoin, etc.). Remember Bitcoin is a p2p network and open source software, there is not necessarily anyone doing disaster planning here. If we do have a catastrophe, BTC price will suffer a serious long term setback.

Quote

1. Their blockchains are not as robust as bitcoin's.

wrong. weve already discussed this. NXT has the same exact risk parameters as Bitcoin(minus the need to buy expensive hardware).

Quote

2. It is not possible to trade those assets against bitcoin in a trustless manner (limiting your trading options to people you know or using 3rd party exchanges).

wrong again. Someone is building a system by which vouchers circulate through NXT that are tied to dormant transactions in the block chain. You are guaranteed the BTC and you can exchange the for any other asset in the system. Also jl777 is working on an exchange technology(you can buy stock in his company, Asset name 'InstantDEX'.

-bm

Peter R

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Quote from: bluemeanie1 on May 14, 2014, 10:35:36 PM

Color Coins is going to overload the block chain and cause major problems with the core bitcoin features.

If it were possible to "cause major problems with the core bitcoin features" just by making valid bitcoin transactions, then it would be very easy to attack the bitcoin network. Think about it.

The colored coins protocol allows one to issue custom digital assets on the most secure blockchain and trade them for other colored coins or for bitcoin, even supporting trustless coinjoin transactions. This is big.

The other foo-coins like NXT that implement features similar to colored coins are at a strong disadvantage:

1. Their blockchains are not as robust as bitcoin's.

2. It is not possible to trade those assets against bitcoin in a trustless manner (limiting your trading options to people you know or using 3rd party exchanges).

bluemeanie1

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bluemeanie

Color Coins is going to overload the block chain and cause major problems with the core bitcoin features.

-bm

bpd

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Quote from: Coinprism on May 14, 2014, 06:07:16 PM

OBC and POBC don't rely on the Bitcoin transaction rules either to verify transactions: the Bitcoin protocol has no knowledge of colors, so it's not possible to rely on that.

If you make an invalid transaction, depending on how inputs and outputs are setup, you may uncolor some or all of the coins you are transferring. If that is the case, they cannot be spent again (they have been uncolored, and no longer exist).

If there was such a thing as a color-aware client and miners were running it, it could reject such transactions.

You can check the example at the bottom of the document, it walks though the coloring process.

Okay, that makes sense. The spec is a bit light on discussing what constitutes a valid vs. invalid transaction. Can there exist a valid transaction with invalid outputs, or does any invalid output make the transaction invalid?

If address A has 100 units of color C, and I make a transaction that transfers 200 units of C from address A to address B, what is the result? Does A still contain 100 coins of color C?

Edit: Ah, it appears from the example in the spec that this is a valid transaction, but the coloring would be destroyed by this transaction (similar to Output 9 in the spec).

Coinprism

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Quote from: bpd on May 14, 2014, 05:49:54 PM

I'm trying to wrap my head around the Open Assets specification that CoinPrism is using. If I understand it correctly, unlike OBC or POBC ways of doing colored coins, it seems the Bitcoin transaction rules do not actually help do any validation of the transactions. If I have 100 WTK, I can create a transaction which sends 200 WTK and the Bitcoin network will process that just fine, and it would be up to the colored coin software to determine that was invalid, right?

So in the case above, what are the rules about that transaction? Is it just ruled completely invalid? Can I then re-send a transaction for 50 WTK since the previous send will be deemed invalid?

OBC and POBC don't rely on the Bitcoin transaction rules either to verify transactions: the Bitcoin protocol has no knowledge of colors, so it's not possible to rely on that.

If you make an invalid transaction, depending on how inputs and outputs are setup, you may uncolor some or all of the coins you are transferring. If that is the case, they cannot be spent again (they have been uncolored, and no longer exist).

If there was such a thing as a color-aware client and miners were running it, it could reject such transactions.

You can check the example at the bottom of the document, it walks though the coloring process.

Peter R

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Quote from: bpd on May 14, 2014, 05:49:54 PM

I'm trying to wrap my head around the Open Assets specification that CoinPrism is using. If I understand it correctly, unlike OBC or POBC ways of doing colored coins, it seems the Bitcoin transaction rules do not actually help do any validation of the transactions. If I have 100 WTK, I can create a transaction which sends 200 WTK and the Bitcoin network will process that just fine, and it would be up to the colored coin software to determine that was invalid, right?

So in the case above, what are the rules about that transaction? Is it just ruled completely invalid? Can I then re-send a transaction for 50 WTK since the previous send will be deemed invalid?

Yes, I had the same questions and I'd like to get this answered too. Are transactions that turn 100 WTK into 200 WTK still mined but deemed invalid according to the open-asset rules (in which case the original 100 WTK still exist somewhere)? Or do they somehow become invalid bitcoin transactions and as such are not even relayed between nodes? I think the answer is the former, but I'm not sure.

bpd

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I'm trying to wrap my head around the Open Assets specification that CoinPrism is using. If I understand it correctly, unlike OBC or POBC ways of doing colored coins, it seems the Bitcoin transaction rules do not actually help do any validation of the transactions. If I have 100 WTK, I can create a transaction which sends 200 WTK and the Bitcoin network will process that just fine, and it would be up to the colored coin software to determine that was invalid, right?

So in the case above, what are the rules about that transaction? Is it just ruled completely invalid? Can I then re-send a transaction for 50 WTK since the previous send will be deemed invalid?

Peter R

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Quote from: Adrian-x on May 14, 2014, 05:45:24 PM

Quote from: Peter R on May 14, 2014, 03:36:40 AM

Apple farming aside, you might be on to something. A promotional site like Groupon could create colored coins on behalf of their small businesses clients and sell/give away the colored coins as vouchers. It would be trivial for the merchant to verify and redeem the vouchers and it would make the entire process more transparent and probably a better deal for the small businesses. Consumers wouldn't even know they are using bitcoins.

This actually seems like a really good idea!

I love this idea, apart from the fact it's the killer app that makes Bitcoin succeed without adding value to my Bitcoin.

foot in the door Adrian...foot in the door...

Adrian-x

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Quote from: Peter R on May 14, 2014, 03:36:40 AM

Apple farming aside, you might be on to something. A promotional site like Groupon could create colored coins on behalf of their small businesses clients and sell/give away the colored coins as vouchers. It would be trivial for the merchant to verify and redeem the vouchers and it would make the entire process more transparent and probably a better deal for the small businesses. Consumers wouldn't even know they are using bitcoins.

This actually seems like a really good idea!

I love this idea, apart from the fact it's the killer app that makes Bitcoin succeed without adding value to my Bitcoin.

Peter R

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Quote from: Coinprism on May 14, 2014, 04:51:12 PM

Quote from: Peter R on May 14, 2014, 04:24:47 PM

Congrats on getting the site up and running. Colored coins are very exciting.

I couldn't find a donation address for your project. Do donations sent to http://coloredcoins.org/donate/ help fund work on Coinprism?

Thanks Peter!

That page would not go to Coinprism.

Thanks for your support!

I figured that the coloredcoins.org donations might help fund color-coin related projects. I think it would be a lot better to remove the address you just posted above as it does not seem very "official," and add it to the Coinprism website instead.

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