Topic: Communism vs Free World= Kamala vs Trump. - page 3. (Read 1051 times)

Communism has a way of ruining things. Always has a good start but then it doesn’t end well. There’s always something fishy about it

there in no "free world", there is only communism with psyops, propaganda and entertainment LOL

Potatoes are good. They have nicotine in them. Neutralizes the King Cobra venom popularly known as the Covid virus.

So that's... great? Less social security -> less communism?

And why are you looking at government handouts. You're supposed to live off potatoes on your sovereign land.

When a regime in office sends American money to Ukraine, harming the American people thereby, who cares what it's called?

I just looked up what the scheduled Social Security inflationary increase is for retired people in the US for 2025. It's going to be 2.5%... way less then the actual inflationary increase. $Billions to fight wars around the world. $Billions essentially stolen from the American people.

Yep, most people in the US think of Communism as a swear word. They have not really reflected on what it means, what could have positive, what are the reasons why it appeared and made perfect sense at a point in time, and now - in my view - how is it utterly unrealisable in modern times, as it ignores some of the most basic human aspirations and motivations.

The mindset is simplistic: communism means the state takes from me to give others. They do not need to know anything else.

Let me get this straight ("from what happened in the real world" is kind of vague)  You think that for something to be considered communist, it only need to be labeled as such by politicians you agree with or media you consume today and the views of people who started the communist movement 150+ years ago, and inspired communist governments and people for the next 100 years are irrelevant.  Is that right?  Or is it because there have been many political parties and nation states that have labeled themselves "communist" and therefor the things they did define communism going forward?

I think that's pretty dumb.  "Ignorant" doesn't magically become "Educated" just because enough people are ignorant of the same thing.  Just because everyone calls the Native Americans "Indians" doesn't mean they are from India.  
  



Nice job pwning the libs with that one.

I read the communist manifesto.  But that was written by Karl Marx, someone you think is not relevant to our discussion on the definition of communism. (lol)

And, to be more specific, communists don't think people should own private property, like land, factories, shops, etc.  Personal property like clothes and stuff is different and ok.

The 10 planks of Communism, below. Do they fit your country? Maybe they are only getting stronger in your country, but aren't there yet. Or maybe they are sneaking in, hidden behind false fronts.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

From https://www.garynorth.com/public/17240.cfm.

Let me see if I can parse out where this disconnect is happening. You seem to be taking the not uncommon but vague interpretation of "communim" meaning any society that has communism at its ideology, its goal, but hasn't achieved that goal. Which can mean basically anything, from a communist party winning an election to a violent communist regime like NK. Which makes this discussion quite pointless. You can cherry-pick anything from any point in history of any of the communist-ruled countries, or any countries that you personally deem communist, as well as from anything e.g. Karl Marx has said and use it as an irrefutable argument that the US is on its way to communism. Given that most societies tend to progress towards more inclusivity and equality over long term, and many politicians tend to make crowd-pleasing promises, it's a very easy and very misleading way to put some extra fearmongering into a political debate.

I personally find this way too cringy to continue. Arguing about communism from a comfort of everything that a modern democratic market-based society can offer... on a bitcoin forum... it's just surreal. Tell you what, if Kamala tries to do communism, I'll just illegally migrate to Canada. Problem solved. Good luck in Alaska.

Today Kamala Harris is floating the idea of giving Black Americans a $20,000 loan they don’t have to repay. I guess I’m curious what the cutoff will be. Do you have to be 100% African American? Less than 50% like Harris herself? What about people who are 25% African American? Is this going to be the new way to buy votes? Offer to give money to entire races?

You've got a point here but the thing is that if I have to choose between those who want more state control and less freedom for the citizen, more CBDCs and less bitcoin or the other way around, or between more censorship or more freedom of expression I prefer the latter.

In general, I have long since realized that the best thing to do is to make a living regardless of what the politicians do, but with the election bet I have entered into heated debates.

The Fed's greatest accomplishment is convincing people that they can change their country by dividing them into blue and red camps, while most financial issues we experience actually stem from the way fiat currency works, something that is not controlled by Trump, Kamala, or even Congress.

The two parties certainly have different agendas and do influence the economy, but it's remarkable how much attention is given to politicians, while so little is said about those who actually manage the money supply.

From what happened in the real world, smarty pants, from what happened in the countries that implemented the system.

If Marx said that communism was going to be wonderful and in all the countries where it has been implemented there has been nothing but famine, political repression, censorship and millions of dead, I base myself on what is happening in the world and not on what a book said.

And who told you that under communism


Was it at a meeting of leftists who think they are the saviors of the world or what?


 

You generally can't do things that you don't know about. But now that Trump knows about the censoring that the Deep State is doing, he can combat it.

The control that the Deep State has is the voluntary operation of the companies that the Deep State has control over. In other words, company leaders are part of the Deep State.

If seizing companies is the only way that you can think of that Trump could take control, there might not be any way to explain things to you without writing a book.

The meaningful things that Trump might do when elected, is to prosecute Deep State people for the illegal things that they do.

Yes, the US has violated the rights of their citizens and people. Or is it the United States at all? There is law that says that if a government person acts illegally, he is not acting with government authority, but personally. It is partially the peoples' fault for not learning about how the common law works. If they knew, there would be very little adjudication against them, even if they were guilty.

If people knew just a little law, long ago, the IRS tax and drivers licenses would have become non-existent... at least in the US.

So, what is Trump supposed to do which he could not do when he was president to attack the so called Dem deep state which alledgedly has control over companies which are publicly traded, like Amazon and Google? He cannot seize them because that is communism and communism is bad and according to you the government of the United State does not have the power to get private property from people.
In reality, if Trump get re-elected he won't do anything meaningful or positive besides some tax cuts for the rich and perhaps negotiating with Putin on how much of Ukraine he is going to keep for himself and that's it.

By the way, you would consider the USA has literally violated the rights of their own citizens in the past for the sake of programs like MkUltra. Of the government is willing to kidnap people to test drugs on them then I am sure they won't have much of a problem stealing private property and getting away with it.

Ok, so Karl Marx is not a valid source for defining the concept of communism.  My mistake.  I assume Engels is also out.

So when was your definition of communism born?  And who is behind it? 

Joseph McCarthy?  That would make a lot of sense considering the connection to Trump.  But does calling all your enemies communist really redefine communism itself?  Embracing ignorance like that makes me uncomfortable - especially on something that was started by Nazi sympathizers.  So I hope it's not McCarthy. 

Trump has been saying that the Dem Deep State has already taken over the government, and the thing that he is trying to do is get it back to give to the people. Sure, he might change. Nobody knows. But such is what he was doing his first term... 'giving' to the people.





Since the Dem Deep State already has control of Amazon and Google, why would they want to seize them? You can see the control in the lack of media freedom they operate, both in the air waves, and in the books that are being suppressed.

Last year the Social Security increase was a measly 3.2%... way less than inflation. Yet there were $billions given to Ukraine. This shows that the Biden/Cabala Deep State has already "sunsetted" much or most of SS. Trump has expressed that he is of a mind to overturn that "sunsetting."

Why has not Google and Amazon, among other big corporations donated millions of dollars to the Communist party of America or the Socialist Party of America, instead they donate much money to the Democrat party. It is interesting, to say the least.

Though, I agree with you when you say all of those donations is about using money to get more money, but it is not through the establishment of a new communist system of government within the USA, all those Wall Street wolves and CEOs are afraid of the authentic left to seize power in the country, that is why they fund the Democrat party, which are progressives but they are capitalist. If there was not as much political division in your country people would realize both the Democrat and Republican party are pretty much running to keep the same capitalist and wealth system in place. It is a good reason why Trump would never dare to "sunset" social security and Kamala would never dare to seize big corporations like Google or Apple, they are all in their position to keep the same people happy. You know.

Maybe he lives in Alaska, it would explain most of the symptoms.

Venezuela is now the common place to mention to most right and far right parties. It happens not only in the US, but also in Europe. Curiously enough, most of the extreme right and right conveniently forget that authoritarians regimes are mostly doing economically and socially worse and most of them have little in common with communism.

In my view, Trump's policies could be discussed, the problem is that is into changing the political regime (short of an imperfect democracy) for an authoritarian regime. Questioning voting, representatives, the public officials, the judges (while setting his own SCOTUS)... all looks more of a takeover than a political programme.

Again just "play a little game" - what would someone trying to take over a government, whether winning or loosing elections do and say? And now, what is Trump doing and saying?

Our discussions remind me of the never-ending story.

The point here is that TwitchySeal has started giving me lessons on communist theory when I am not ignorant of it, far from it, by saying that


when the fact is that people did own property.


I know, I know, it's not the first time I've put this joke on the forum:

Reagan Joke -- Soviet Union and Getting A New Automobile

The fact is that no matter how you put it, in communist countries there is private property, no matter how much you want to put things in quotation marks or how much there are differences with private property in the free world.


This is what many communists claim (I'm not saying you do), as if to say that real communism has never been implemented and that when it is implemented it will be wonderful. For me it is the opposite, if what has been implemented that has not reached Marx's ideal but almost, if it is implemented what tens of millions of starving and freezing dead will seem like child's play.

On the other hand, I do not know how there are people who take Marx's ideas as a pious person takes the bible. Marx was a violent drunkard who was imprisoned for it and who led a bourgeois life, an example of “do as I say but not as I do”.


You seem like a broken record. Look at how Venezuela was in January 1999. Do you think it was anywhere near that?


It isn't.


As I responded to TwitchySeal earlier, that's based on very selective cherry-picking. The mainstream measures of political economy have nothing to do with what Marx advocated.


What is not infobubble no matter how much you want to use that term to disqualify the argument is that Kamala explicitly says she wants a society where everyone ends up equal, and that is a commonality of all communist societies that have been implemented, that everyone ends up equally poor thanks to a state that is dedicated to planning the economy rather than leaving it in the hands of free interacting individuals. What is also not infobubble is the taste for censorship from Democrat/Labor/Socialist positions. What Kamala wants to do is to increase state power and control, in economics not only by increasing regulations and taxes, but by putting in place CBDCs, which are a financial Big Brother, censor what might hurt the Democratic party, and create a population increasingly dependent on the crumbs given to them by the state instead of a population that can stand on its own feet. That has a lot more to do with communism than what Trump wants to do, which is fine with me if he sticks a rocket up his ass and blows himself up, as long as whoever replaces him advocates policies more prone to the free market.


Good point. In my opinion because the regulations and taxes that the Democrats tend to put in place are easy for those large mega corporations to comply with and difficult for small and medium sized businesses to comply with, thus favoring them. And on the other hand because there is nothing new about the phenomenon of communist wealthy people, such as Marx who, as I have explained before, was a bourgeois.

Then they see themselves as saviors of the world from their billionaire mansions, for example by defending mass immigration, when they do not suffer from it. An example is when the governor of Florida sent a busload of illegal immigrants to Marta's vineyard, a self proclaimed sanctuary against immigration (of billionaires) they didn't even last 24 hours.