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Topic: Community Miner Design Discussion - page 4. (Read 34275 times)

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
June 27, 2016, 05:46:28 AM
I doubt very seriously that ANYONE is going to get ANY chips in ANY reasonable amount for us home miners  Roll Eyes

All this chatter is nice,but more than likely to no avail  Sad

So best of luck & I'll keep watchin...but I'ma doubtin  Cheesy
Are you in? how much? Suppose a very good infrastructure is available and you can contribute financially and mentally, Are You IN?
You feel enthusiastic about your SADO idea. That's fine. But nothing about that has any bearing at this point to what was discussed before with regards to brainstorming about physical hardware configurations, firmware/software protocols and implementations. With due regards to the physical end product. Nothing has as of yet to bare the necessity of shaping what Might be built. You've gone a bit OT and thus far comments have managed to stay within the boundaries of politeness, thus far. To be honest though, it kinda pissed me of when I'm reading a thread meant to discuss how to shape a miner in concept and some one injects the process with the phrase "MANAGEMENT SUPERVISION", that's the LAST EFFIN THING this project needs! I bite my tongue now.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 27, 2016, 05:17:03 AM
I doubt very seriously that ANYONE is going to get ANY chips in ANY reasonable amount for us home miners  Roll Eyes

All this chatter is nice,but more than likely to no avail  Sad

So best of luck & I'll keep watchin...but I'ma doubtin  Cheesy
Are you in? how much? Suppose a very good infrastructure is available and you can contribute financially and mentally, Are You IN?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 27, 2016, 05:13:26 AM

why then? just keep reading the whole damn sentence
Quote
design-by-committee is great, sharing knowledge and expertise is great and having a reference guy in charge is great too, I see no contradiction and divergence here ...

good luck with being a genius and we ordinary average Joe's will appreciate you enough but even an average Joe sometimes has something surprising to mention and to help, let's have you (the genius)  in charge and give poor Joe some opportunity to help and learn.
I mean come on, even Batman gets aid .... Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1001
June 27, 2016, 04:28:25 AM
I doubt very seriously that ANYONE is going to get ANY chips in ANY reasonable amount for us home miners  Roll Eyes

All this chatter is nice,but more than likely to no avail  Sad

So best of luck & I'll keep watchin...but I'ma doubtin  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 27, 2016, 04:02:05 AM

Chinese corporates are swallowing the whale destroying the Bitcoin (along with themselves though) by monopolizing ASIC chips design and supply


 When did BitFury move to China?

 Also, GlobalFounderies DOES have at least one of their fabs in the US (ex-IBM as I recall? Or was it ex-Intel?).



Is it enough for arguing against the obvious facts? https://blockchain.info/pools

legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1030
June 27, 2016, 03:35:56 AM

Chinese corporates are swallowing the whale destroying the Bitcoin (along with themselves though) by monopolizing ASIC chips design and supply


 When did BitFury move to China?

 Also, GlobalFounderies DOES have at least one of their fabs in the US (ex-IBM as I recall? Or was it ex-Intel?).

hero member
Activity: 578
Merit: 501
full member
Activity: 135
Merit: 100
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 26, 2016, 05:16:27 AM

Anything unreasonable or unfavorable here? Huh
Yes. All of it.

This is not about building an ecosystem or changing the world, it is simply about building a miner based around the best suggestions/ideas presented here. Nor are the plans for said miner to be mass produced per se which removes the need for most of the Corporate overhead you call for.
So we are discussing a community miner which is going to be used by ..wait ...by whom? It is not the community as it is not going to be mass produced ... so who in the hell is going to use it? And 'all of' my post is unreasonable while you are telling us meaningful stuff?

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I mean, "design , prototype, test and deploy cycles under quality control and management supervision"? The final design is not up to a vote, it is up to the head of the project, Sidehack. Period.

Folks behind this thread have seen previous hardware projects fail and fall apart precisely because of the design-by-committee approach and worse yet -- direct investor input/pressure from folks with little to no skills on the technical matters they are pushing their wants/idea for -- that you are advocating.
design-by-committee is great, sharing knowledge and expertise is great and having a reference guy in charge is great too, I see no contradiction and divergence here ...

'direct investor input/pressure' is of little concern here, nobody comes to invest in a sidehack project to push him out of rail, it is absurd. people should have a voice about most strategic decisions (like one you have made by your own about not to mass produce the product) this is it! nothing more, nobody is interested in details and everybody is concerned and has a right to be concerned about the strategy
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I for one am all for the Lone Ranger (cowboy) approach. Then again, like Sidehack I am one as well (though my biz is industrial lasers).
me too Grin
seriously, people who know me being asked about the one lone ranger in the world, without a second hesitation will introduce me as #1 candidate.
But I am planning to retire or something like that ... mmm ... put it this way ... for this specific problem, saving and strengthening community miners to defeat the obvious centralization threat to the Blockchain from China, I'm willing to try new possibilities and opportunities risen from this technology to make a compromise  Wink
Quote
Now, does Genius need backers to fund building/testing/implementing their ideas? Sure.

congratulations! But Why? and more importantly, HOW?
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 10
June 26, 2016, 04:19:55 AM
Money, to me, is a tool just like anything else. It's a construct that allows me to turn stuff into different stuff, and effort into reward. Money is not the goal, money is a means of translating work and stuff into the goal - whatever that goal may be. But yeah, most agreements or contracts do hinge on turning work into money or stuff into money, which for one side is work into money and the other side money into the goal. I've just never liked the idea of "having lots of money" being the goal in itself, because money is useless by definition if it's not being used.

Well said.
legendary
Activity: 3822
Merit: 2703
Evil beware: We have waffles!
June 25, 2016, 12:00:34 PM

Anything unreasonable or unfavorable here? Huh
Yes. All of it.

This is not about building an ecosystem or changing the world, it is simply about building a miner based around the best suggestions/ideas presented here. Nor are the plans for said miner to be mass produced per se which removes the need for most of the Corporate overhead you call for.

I mean, "design , prototype, test and deploy cycles under quality control and management supervision"? The final design is not up to a vote, it is up to the head of the project, Sidehack. Period.

Folks behind this thread have seen previous hardware projects fail and fall apart precisely because of the design-by-committee approach and worse yet -- direct investor input/pressure from folks with little to no skills on the technical matters they are pushing their wants/idea for -- that you are advocating. For one example, WASP is a great Poster Child for that. It's end result was endless discussions over minutia, continual scope-creep and tons of wasted time and monies all of which finally drowned the project in bureaucracy and killed it.

I for one am all for the Lone Ranger (cowboy) approach. Then again, like Sidehack I am one as well (though my biz is industrial lasers).

Now, does Genius need backers to fund building/testing/implementing their ideas? Sure. I for one am grateful to have hooked up with one back in the 70's when I was at Photon Sources, he was their head of aftermarket sales. We soon left together to form our own company and have not once looked back ever since. He was also wise enough to let me do what I do so well with zero interference while he concentrated on sales of what I come up with and build, running the business, and finding capital to fund the R&D toys, er, equipment I need.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 25, 2016, 08:37:42 AM

That is a whole lot of words  ....
....
I think what you have failed to read on this thread is that the purpose of this miner is to empower the little guys.  Any dealings like what you are suggesting is a, well, COMPLETE SELL OUT
You want to support little guys? The only way  is to have them cooperative and united, 'somehow, someway' ...

The 'genius hacker-cowboy' discourse is useless and in this very moment almost dangerous: It does nothing other than wasting people's time and opportunities.

Chinese corporates are swallowing the whale destroying the Bitcoin (along with themselves though) by monopolizing ASIC chips design and supply and faking a hardware supplier role while at the same time are competting with their customers using next generation chips and technologies.

And Mr.Kilo is going to fight them alone with no money and no support, fantastic but impractical and worse.

A dedicated engineer stuck in love with a project like this, is to be employed full time to go through design , prototype, test and deploy cycles under quality control and management supervision while using workshops, instruments, laboratories, parts , ... scheduled to the project. She will probably need a handful of teammates and assistants plus an extensive support of software engineers and devs.

I don't buy this sort of un-functional imitation of a dedicated hero. If You are committed to the purpose, say welcome to 'somehow, someway' organizing 'little guys' potentials and capabilities and if not stop playing Zorba shit ...

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if it is anything like the DAO, count me out.  I am dedicated to somehow, someway making a Community Miner.  I WILL GET IT DONE - as far as expanding or somehow encompassing a smart contract or even associating the "Community Miner" with such a business plan or proposition would be a fail in my book.
DAO is a failed attempt based on a false idea: smart contracts. There is and there will be no smart contract for sure , contracts are social objects made and maintained by humans. I am talking about  semi-smart contracts i.e. contracts supported and facilitated by machines somewhat extensively but by no means ultimately and fully automated.
I am proposing such a semi-smart contract can help us to establish a semi-Autonomous Distributed Organisation as a 'bitcoinized' alternative to the Failed DAO and using this to support and escalate efforts and projects in favor of decentralizing Bitcoin network hash power effectively, the community miner project being one of them. Anything unreasonable or unfavorable here? Huh




member
Activity: 99
Merit: 10
June 25, 2016, 07:30:20 AM
Indeed Kilo should catch up with Sidehack some time. It'll be a lot of fun I hope then.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
June 24, 2016, 10:56:31 PM
Oh hey Kilo, we should catch up sometime.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
aka "whocares"
June 24, 2016, 09:47:40 PM
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 24, 2016, 04:26:45 AM
I think one of the problems is, you assume I have a more firm grasp on the full meaning (and implication of that meaning) of terms like "semi-smart contract" and "SADO" than I actually do. Please explain like this is the first time the listener has ever heard those phrases. Like I said, I'm generally opposed to overlaying things not "transfer money from A to B" on the blockchain so I admittedly have ignored all discussions on that line. I put enough time into hardware without getting mixed up in philosophy.

That said, my philosophy on "money" disagrees with the statement that "money is the destination of everything". Money, to me, is a tool just like anything else. It's a construct that allows me to turn stuff into different stuff, and effort into reward. Money is not the goal, money is a means of translating work and stuff into the goal - whatever that goal may be. But yeah, most agreements or contracts do hinge on turning work into money or stuff into money, which for one side is work into money and the other side money into the goal. I've just never liked the idea of "having lots of money" being the goal in itself, because money is useless by definition if it's not being used.
About hating greed and paying no attention to money per se … No objections and thumbs up 
I think the majority of people (admitting it or not) pay no shit about money and hate it, deep in their hearts … but as a dirty tool money have this unique feature that can translate and measure most of the real world contracts. It is more than enough for justifying my proposal to build semi-smart contracts on top of the Bitcoin Blockchain.

It is too much for me to give a formal description of my proposal , it is premature, more a ‘requirement’  than a proposal or even an idea. But I’ll do my best  Smiley

let's begin with a preface focusing on our (actually ‘your’)  community miner project:

1-   We need funds, investments should be made.
2-   This funds should go somewhere, be kept, be accounted, be allocated and spent under a managerial decision making process.
3-   Our potential investors mainly are Bitcoin community members who
      a1.   have strategic alignment with the project goals and objectives as a community member
      a2.      have ordinary interests about ROI  as an ordinary investor
      b.   need and deserve to have a voice in the managerial and strategic decisions.
      c.   need transparency and accountability.
      d.   need proof of ownership and interest
4-   Our key technical staff (probably headed by you) :
      a.   should have job satisfaction in both technical and beneficial terms
      b.   should have a voice in decision making processes
      c.   need appreciation and respect, being isolated from acquisitions and arguments about conspiracy, fraud, …
5-   our target market, being Bitcoin community:
      a.   needs reliable and accountable information about the state of the project
      b.   needs to have a voice on the most strategic discussions and dispute resolutions
6-   Our socioeconomic environment:
      a.   Has juristic and authoritative rights to be considered and handled properly
      b.   Generates signals and indexes and other data referenceable  in the internal communications and discussions (tax tables,  stock and exchange                prices, electricity fees, government regulations, laws , … )
7-   …

Most parts of this image seems not to be  avant-garde and inspiring enough and surprisingly we always find ourselves bored hearing stuff like this, do you know why? Traditional institutes and greedy corporates have ruined it!
They pretend to have most of this image implemented already, a lie!
The so called “management consultancy” firms make hypes and advertisements about their dedication and achievements in implementing this measures, another lie!

Literally there is not and will not be a straightforward guaranteed way of achieving this level of "make all happy" scenario in a centralized organization run by a bunch of greedy elites seeking their goal functions to be optimized.

DAO failure, on the other hand proved widely it is not a trivial job to be left to the game theory enthusiasts to accomplish.
It is not just a simple failure of a piece of code, not even just the failure of teenagerism and underestimating the real world.  It is the failure of the game theory approach to solving real world problems using an instrument fueled by aspiration and arrogance.

But it is about Bitcoin future, the community mining project I mean, it is about keeping Bitcoin decentralized and Bitcoin community have to do something about it.
The centralized world, corporates, governments can’t do (and wouldn’t do if they could) anything about it.
An ordinary traditional company can’t understand the motivations and strategic parts of this business and eventually fails to become anything much far from Bitmain , Bitfury, … not a chance, practically zero.

Individually, without a good establishment and investment you can’t do much than what you have already done, good for you and thank you about it Smiley, but not enough to keep Bitcoin on the rail.

So what? Surrender and give up? Absolutely not a recommended option.

I’ll start another thread and will put a link here and a link to this discussion there respectively. I’ll try to give some outlines and invite people to contribute. I’ll try to define my intended perception of words like semi-smart contracts and Semi-Autonomous Distributed Organization, SADO.

Obviously as the term ‘semi’ implies it is about a compromise between  our soft and sweet dreams about implementing an exciting respected, democratic, fair, profit making institution to work and live in it,  proud and satisfied,   on one side, and the harsh, bitter taste of the real world, on the other side.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1030
June 24, 2016, 02:32:17 AM

. I personally belive that even 55nm chips heavily undervolted (0.3V) can run extremely efficient with modified design.


 I doubt a 55 nm chip CAN run at 0.3 volts.

 I've not seen a 28nm chip manage that, much less a 55nm.

legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1073
June 23, 2016, 09:08:06 AM
Now that I have come to this point let me to reveal my other secrets:

The way I understand semi-smart contracts and SADO's they are the ultimate answers to the canonical debate about the Bitcoin scalability and I deeply believe there will be no other long term solution for problems like micro payments and the headroom needed for high volume transaction processing.
Secrets?

Ultimate answer is "semi-smart contracts and SADOs"?

Wrong!

The Ultimate Answer is 42.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1865
Curmudgeonly hardware guy
June 23, 2016, 07:52:21 AM
I think one of the problems is, you assume I have a more firm grasp on the full meaning (and implication of that meaning) of terms like "semi-smart contract" and "SADO" than I actually do. Please explain like this is the first time the listener has ever heard those phrases. Like I said, I'm generally opposed to overlaying things not "transfer money from A to B" on the blockchain so I admittedly have ignored all discussions on that line. I put enough time into hardware without getting mixed up in philosophy.

That said, my philosophy on "money" disagrees with the statement that "money is the destination of everything". Money, to me, is a tool just like anything else. It's a construct that allows me to turn stuff into different stuff, and effort into reward. Money is not the goal, money is a means of translating work and stuff into the goal - whatever that goal may be. But yeah, most agreements or contracts do hinge on turning work into money or stuff into money, which for one side is work into money and the other side money into the goal. I've just never liked the idea of "having lots of money" being the goal in itself, because money is useless by definition if it's not being used.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1176
Always remember the cause!
June 23, 2016, 01:14:04 AM
Now that I have come to this point let me to reveal my other secrets:

The way I understand semi-smart contracts and SADO's they are the ultimate answers to the canonical debate about the Bitcoin scalability and I deeply believe there will be no other long term solution for problems like micro payments and the headroom needed for high volume transaction processing.

It is really getting the topic out of rail now, but as a big picture better to be outlined here. Wink

What is a micro payment? It is or it can be interpreted as an obligation to transfer money, guaranteed by a SADO.

What is the nature of a high volume financial transaction processing environment? It is or it can be interpreted as a stream of micro payments.
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