Topic: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune (Read 11418 times)
As I've said, it may well be that you would win on this point in court.
But you have to actually get to court first, and while threatening legal action is a favourite internet pastime, hardly anyone actually follows through on it, and KNC probably took that into account.
And if anyone does actually go through the process of starting Swedish proceedings, and looking like they might actually follow through, KNC can simply come to an agreement to refund that person, without it creating any sort of precedent for others.
They've taken your money and delivered a late, poor quality product.
Is that something to be applauded? No.
Are they probably going to get away with it? Yes.
Is that in large part because purchasers voluntarily signed away their consumer rights? Yes.
But you have to actually get to court first, and while threatening legal action is a favourite internet pastime, hardly anyone actually follows through on it, and KNC probably took that into account.
And if anyone does actually go through the process of starting Swedish proceedings, and looking like they might actually follow through, KNC can simply come to an agreement to refund that person, without it creating any sort of precedent for others.
They've taken your money and delivered a late, poor quality product.
Is that something to be applauded? No.
Are they probably going to get away with it? Yes.
Is that in large part because purchasers voluntarily signed away their consumer rights? Yes.
I pretty much agree. Luckily I have home insurance that covers legal disputes over good and services for up to £50,000. So I'm going to call my insurer tomorrow.
I think you're absolutely right. KNC will not want to set a legal precedent and will probably be advised to settle. But as you say most people on the forums are just blowing hot air and will never get anywhere near litigation, KNC are counting on that. But I'm not most people.
Did the BFL terms and conditions contain a term that they were sold on a B2B basis?
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.
It has everything to do with what you wrote.
Quote
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
You seem to be assuming that owning a bitcoin miner makes you a business.
No, I'm saying that on top of you agreeing that you bought as a business, there are a number of issues (such as above), which KNC would point out to show that it was reasonable for them to believe that you were in fact buying for commercial reasons. This isn't like the German car sales example.
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This will probably have to be tested in court. But I have a feeling a reasonable judge will see this for what it really is, a crude attempt to rob customers of their consumer rights. Once that happens KNC are finished.
As I've said, it may well be that you would win on this point in court.
But you have to actually get to court first, and while threatening legal action is a favourite internet pastime, hardly anyone actually follows through on it, and KNC probably took that into account.
And if anyone does actually go through the process of starting Swedish proceedings, and looking like they might actually follow through, KNC can simply come to an agreement to refund that person, without it creating any sort of precedent for others.
To really 'win' requires someone to be prepared to spend more on legal costs than they would receive in refunds, because they want to make a principled point / and or because they want to 'get' KNC. (I don't know about the Swedish system, but in the UK, if they have turned down a reasonable refund offer to do this, they may not be able to recover their costs.)
Any volunteers?
They've taken your money and delivered a late, poor quality product.
Is that something to be applauded? No.
Are they probably going to get away with it? Yes.
Is that in large part because purchasers voluntarily signed away their consumer rights? Yes.
Did the BFL terms and conditions contain a term that they were sold on a B2B basis?
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.
It has everything to do with what you wrote.
Quote
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
You seem to be assuming that owning a bitcoin miner makes you a business. The FTC doesn't see it that way. KNCs only argument is the line in their T&Cs. Which actually says:
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1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.
Is that enough to make an individual consumer a business? Even if that consumer has stated to KNC they are NOT a business, yet KNC refuses to void their order and continues processing it? Breaching their own T&Cs.
If they were truly a B2B company, surely they would void the orders of anyone who told them they were not a business and refund them. There are plenty of legitimate B2B sites where this is the case, in fact they make it almost impossible to purchase if you are not a legitimate, bona fide business and will terminate your order immediately if they find out you are not.
I have emails with KNC where I asked about buying their products and at no time time did they inform me it was a B2B transaction. I have emails where I told KNC I am not a business and they pretty much told me they don't care I was getting the product anyway. Does that sound like a legitimate B2B company to you?
Nowhere else is it mentioned on their website, advertising or newsletters. It is buried on one unlinked page in their T&Cs.
This will probably have to be tested in court. But I have a feeling a reasonable judge will see this for what it really is, a crude attempt to rob customers of their consumer rights. Once that happens KNC are finished.
Can you prove that they aren't?
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.
Well the FTC took a different view, so we'll go with that shall we?
http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/
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“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch.”
Note the word consumers. It seems mining crypto doesn't automatically make you a business, so if all KNC are hanging their hat on is that line hidden away in their T&Cs, then they had better strap in and prepare for a rough ride.
Did the BFL terms and conditions contain a term that they were sold on a B2B basis?
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.
What are you saying here? That we should have read the small print?
Yes.You were spending thousands of dollars for a product that didn't exist at the time you ordered it.
Pretty obviously it is going to be important for you to know what happens if something goes wrong.
Read what you are agreeing to.
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I don't think it matters what KNC have/had or will put in their T&Cs, they are a dishonest bunch of crooks. Do you really think they'd be handing out refunds and shipping devices that actually worked if that line wasn't there?
I'm not defending them. I think their business practices are pretty unpleasant.
I'm just saying that they successfully got you to agree to opt-out of consumer protection.
That is a benefit for them, and a loss for you.
(And I said it back in August 2013 when the Bitcoinarama shill was trying to convince people that this didn't matter, so this isn't a case of 20-20 hindsight.)
It may well be that if you took this to court, you would be able to convince a judge that this clause shouldn't apply to you, and that you should be considered a consumer.
However, you would have to actually go to court to prove this, which is a time and expense that they know most people won't be bothered to take.
You would also have to either sue them in Sweden (more time and expense), or first convince a judge to allow you to sue them locally (more time and expense).
I'm not saying they haven't screwed you, I'm saying they have successfully screwed you.
Can you prove that they aren't?
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.
Well the FTC took a different view, so we'll go with that shall we?
http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/
Quote
“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch.”
Note the word consumers. It seems mining crypto doesn't automatically make you a business, so if all KNC are hanging their hat on is that line hidden away in their T&Cs, then they had better strap in and prepare for a rough ride.
Titan first batch ordering page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
Quote
Titan is our first scrypt mining product and will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014.
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 250/MH/s of performance
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor but will have blades of cards inside
Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014
Payment for this product is bitcoins and bank transfer only (we will add litecoin as a payment method in the near future)
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 250/MH/s of performance
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor but will have blades of cards inside
Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014
Payment for this product is bitcoins and bank transfer only (we will add litecoin as a payment method in the near future)
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
What are you saying here? That we should have read the small print?
Hiding one line in their T&Cs about being a B2B company. Yet actively seeking out individual consumers on internet forums, never mentioning anything like this in their advertising, emails, or newsletters and not stating this anywhere else on their website. Seems pretty shady to me. I wonder how a judge would see it?
Try to find the T&Cs on that webpage, in fact go through the whole website? Nicely hidden away aren't they? Not even one link. Funny how when you email KNC about buying their products, they tell you how to pay, they tell you they won't hold your place in the queue and that their products are running out fast, but they conveniently forget to mention you have to be a business to buy them or their products are non refundable
I don't think it matters what KNC have/had or will put in their T&Cs, they are a dishonest bunch of crooks. Do you really think they'd be handing out refunds and shipping devices that actually worked if that line wasn't there?
Ask Neptune customers how their refunds or bonus Neptunes are working out?
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:
"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."
"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."
Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?
This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.
The "consumers right to cancel" is not the point I am pushing in my request for a refund. Whether a consumer or a business, KnC have not delivered on their contractual obligations and falsely advertised the product. In my opinion they will need to refund customers.
I would love to see them try and prove that at least 50% of their customers are business clients and not "private customers"..
Can you prove that they aren't?
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:
"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."
"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."
Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?
This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.
The "consumers right to cancel" is not the point I am pushing in my request for a refund. Whether a consumer or a business, KnC have not delivered on their contractual obligations and falsely advertised the product. In my opinion they will need to refund customers.
I would love to see them try and prove that at least 50% of their customers are business clients and not "private customers"..
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:
"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."
"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."
Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?
This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.
Titan first batch ordering page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
Quote
Titan is our first scrypt mining product and will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014.
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 250/MH/s of performance
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor but will have blades of cards inside
Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014
Payment for this product is bitcoins and bank transfer only (we will add litecoin as a payment method in the near future)
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 250/MH/s of performance
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor but will have blades of cards inside
Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014
Payment for this product is bitcoins and bank transfer only (we will add litecoin as a payment method in the near future)
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
Titan second batch ordering page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140701181846/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
Quote
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 400/MH/s of performance from a 28nm chip
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor
Shipment begins one month after Batch 1
Payment for this product is bitcoins, Litcoins and bank transfer only
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
This product is nonrefundable
Minimum 400/MH/s of performance from a 28nm chip
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor
Shipment begins one month after Batch 1
Payment for this product is bitcoins, Litcoins and bank transfer only
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
This product is nonrefundable
For those that want the links to the archived web pages, not sure why the links died, but you can go to the website:
http://archive.org/web/
From there you can use these "Current" KNC page links, cut and paste a website URL into the "browse history box", and see the dates on the calendar you are looking for of the "OLD" links. Good Luck, please keep me posted if you get a strrong push against KNC, from what I am reading they only shipped a few hundred to date, this is insane.
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/payment
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/faq
http://archive.org/web/
From there you can use these "Current" KNC page links, cut and paste a website URL into the "browse history box", and see the dates on the calendar you are looking for of the "OLD" links. Good Luck, please keep me posted if you get a strrong push against KNC, from what I am reading they only shipped a few hundred to date, this is insane.
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/payment
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/faq
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:
"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."
"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."
Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?
This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.
The "consumers right to cancel" is not the point I am pushing in my request for a refund. Whether a consumer or a business, KnC have not delivered on their contractual obligations and falsely advertised the product. In my opinion they will need to refund customers.
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first.
Quote
Home insurance LEI typically covers legal proceedings relating to the insured’s home, employment, death or personal injury, as well as cases where you have entered into a contract for the sale and supply of goods and services.
Definitely worth a shot.
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:
"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."
"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."
Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:
"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."
"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/
Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.
Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.
I have been in touch with Magnus Daar and can confirm he is looking to put a case together against KnC. He is also looking at having many clients, so splitting costs among the group will save a LOT on lawyer fees (although you'd get these back if you win).
I'd urge anyone looking for a refund to get in touch with Magnus Daar.
Are you Swedish ?
Most of the customers are not from Sweden so it will not be that easy to "sign a deal" for a legal representation and paying for it upfront.
I do want to participate and am willing to pay for it, but it's not easy as sending bitcoins and all done.
If some of the issues and concerns could be explained that would be great.
Otherwise, receiving emails from a few random titan buyers won't do the trick.
Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/
Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.
Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.
I have been in touch with Magnus Daar and can confirm he is looking to put a case together against KnC. He is also looking at having many clients, so splitting costs among the group will save a LOT on lawyer fees (although you'd get these back if you win).
I'd urge anyone looking for a refund to get in touch with Magnus Daar.
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/
Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.
Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.
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