Yeah, I'm done with KNC. I'm not letting their overpriced pieces of junk burn my house down. This post last night just validates my concerns http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/59510-knc-s-hot-products-fried-cable.
That happened even with the Y splitters KNC said would solve the problem. I have 3 Titans on order, 12 boxes that could happen to. They would have been running in and outbuilding close to my main house. If that happened to me I would not know until the building was in flames and it would probably take my house with it.
I've asked for a refund. I'm building a pretty damning case against them. If they care to look at my posts concerning Alpha Technology and on the Cointerra forum (before they shut it down) they'll see I'm the kind of arsehole that just doesn't go away and I'll fight through every court in Sweden and the EU if I have too.
If/when my miners arrive I will refuse them. I have sent them an invoice for the money I'm owed. If this is not paid I will send in the Bailiffs, report them to the police and start court proceedings.
I'll keep you posted.
Topic: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune - page 4. (Read 11418 times)
i've been struggling with them for a refund since june on my order as well, been hung up on multiple times, chewed out once, and told that they have no managers which i can speak with. let me know what you're all doing because i'm tired of companies being able to jerk around customers. my entire refund request stemmed from my 2 neptunes catching fire as well.
Let's see...
I've posted a pretty clear letter last week by registered mail asking for a refund. I've also made it clear that any chance of a fire is simply NOT acceptable for the miner and that I demand a refund if the Titan was designed like the Neptune.
And what happened? KnC didn't ship on Thursday, stating "problems". I do wonder whether this is related. So I'm still hoping they won't be able to deliver till the 30.09.2014. At that point it should be possible (albeit not guaranteed) to sue for a refund.
I've posted a pretty clear letter last week by registered mail asking for a refund. I've also made it clear that any chance of a fire is simply NOT acceptable for the miner and that I demand a refund if the Titan was designed like the Neptune.
And what happened? KnC didn't ship on Thursday, stating "problems". I do wonder whether this is related. So I'm still hoping they won't be able to deliver till the 30.09.2014. At that point it should be possible (albeit not guaranteed) to sue for a refund.
Perhaps KnC should cut their "bake-in" time down and actually ship out on time, eh?
Anyways, there hasn't been much interest on this thread here, so not sure I'll be updating it as frequently.
Please update if/when you have news or info. I'm sure there are many interested parties, given the number of people who have signed the petition
I got my refund back today.. Actions taken: Hired a lawyer, sent a legal notice, Called a local police (Swedish) and launched a formal complaint (FIR- first investigation report), I wish I could have taken those steps 4 months ago to avoid begging for my money to be returned..
I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..
I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..
I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..
I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..
The route going through the police sounds interesting, but I don't feel confident enough to do it yet.
I've sent a letter to KnC citing swedish law (!) now, which gives you rights to cancel the contract NOT ONLY if you are a consumer, but also if you are a business and they do not fulfill their promises or what you can reasonably expect from them (this includes properties they did not promise in the contract, but that you would reasonably expect, e.g. fire safety). The important thing seems to act AS and WHEN you get aware of these facts and demand compensation from KnCMiner so that you reserve your right to cancel.
Last but not least, also called the German "Verbraucherschutz" seems more helpful, but not sure if they'd help me as I'm living in the UK. She said, she's heard about this case before, but doesn't know what the current state is. They had passed it on to lawyers that would look into it.
Finally and interestingly, the EU law is VERY clear IF you are considered a consumer: you can sue them locally in your country of residence (!!!). I think I even understand now how to enforce the title you get from your local court in Sweden.
Anyways, there hasn't been much interest on this thread here, so not sure I'll be updating it as frequently.
I got my refund back today.. Actions taken: Hired a lawyer, sent a legal notice, Called a local police (Swedish) and launched a formal complaint (FIR- first investigation report), I wish I could have taken those steps 4 months ago to avoid begging for my money to be returned..
I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..
I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..
I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..
I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..
ARN seems to be helpful
Hey, I just stopped back by on the KnC forum and saw that things have not got any better with the refunds. This worked for me, but ymmv. File a complaint form with ARN. On their website, they have forms for english also. Now I did receive email from them in swedish and had to translate it, but otherwise everything worked fine. I just filled out the form, attached my invoice and copies of emails from KnC. KnC waited until it was time for ARN to have a hearing and then refunded my money. Good luck on your refund.
I`m waiting for a refund for over 140 days
I had a real problem as my father needed a kidney transplant and asked for a refund on 30.04
Call them , explained them my problem , send them medical leather with the translation of my sister diagnostics and medical problem (the whole family has health issue ) .
They did not refund me , is the same answer over and over again .
I`ve sent email requesting assistance to over 15 Swedish lawyer with no response .
This is the worst company I`ve ever encountered in EU.
I had enough .
Best
T
I had a real problem as my father needed a kidney transplant and asked for a refund on 30.04
Call them , explained them my problem , send them medical leather with the translation of my sister diagnostics and medical problem (the whole family has health issue ) .
They did not refund me , is the same answer over and over again .
I`ve sent email requesting assistance to over 15 Swedish lawyer with no response .
This is the worst company I`ve ever encountered in EU.
I had enough .
Best
T
Hey, I just stopped back by on the KnC forum and saw that things have not got any better with the refunds. This worked for me, but ymmv. File a complaint form with ARN. On their website, they have forms for english also. Now I did receive email from them in swedish and had to translate it, but otherwise everything worked fine. I just filled out the form, attached my invoice and copies of emails from KnC. KnC waited until it was time for ARN to have a hearing and then refunded my money. Good luck on your refund.
First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws. The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.
No, it depends.
In case you are an EU resident this is just based on EU laws and a local lawyer is just fine.
Before actually going to court I'd file complaints everywhere.
btw, this one should not be missed:
Quote from: http://www.arn.se/English/English/
What is ARN?
The National Board for Consumer Disputes (ARN) is a public authority that functions roughly like a court. Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. Claims are filed by the consumer.
The National Board for Consumer Disputes (ARN) is a public authority that functions roughly like a court. Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. Claims are filed by the consumer.
additionally this seems to be a good place to start as well
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/index_en.htm
it led me to these links
Quote from: http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/solving_consumer_disputes/non-judicial_redress/index_en.htm
If you have a problem with a product or service you bought, you can settle your dispute with the trader without going to court. You have a number of options to do that. You can get help from the European Consumer Centres (ECC-net), which provide assistance when you have a problem with a trader in another country. You can also submit your complaint to an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) body and have it dealt with in a low-cost, fast and easy way. In this section you will find useful information on the ECC-net and on ADR.
and this one
A trend can be identified towards an increasing scaling up of mass claims. Expanding mass consumer markets with consumers shopping cross-border and on the internet create a high potential for large groups of consumers being harmed by the same or a similar illegal practice of a trader. The Commission is exploring ways to ensure that such consumer mass claims are solved. Collective redress could be a means to handle this type of claims.
Well written and detailed post. While I didn't buy any KNC products, I certainly feel for those who were affected by what happened.
I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts... More advice.
Everything you've listed above all sounds well and good "rationally", but the truth is a class action lawsuit, or even filing individual civil complaints would likely prove to be a waste of time.
I've had my fair share of legal battles running my business. I've been on both sides of the table, that having sued, or tried, and having been sued or tried.
First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws. The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.
Second, a number of the items you listed, such as "dangerous product due to over wattage on cables"... You can't sue someone for selling a dangerous product. You can only sue for actual damages and punitive damages. Punitive wouldn't apply here, so unless the unit did overheat, causing a fire, which burned down your house, there's nothing to sue for.
Items 2,3,4 would be based around Fraud, which is extremely hard to prove. In order to win a fraud tort claim in most countries, you have to prove, yes prove, that their intention from the very beginning was to screw over their customers. I don't see how you would be able to do that. KNC would certainly claim that they had every good intention of following through, but had business problems, losses, etc. Fraud must be intentional from the outset, as in a company set itself up with the sole purpose to defraud its customers. I don't see that as very likely, nor would it be even feasible to prove.
Lastly, no lawyer is going to touch this. I imagine many people paid for their miner pre-orders with bitcoin. Well, that money is long gone. You can't bleed a stone, and I would expect the holdings of KNC are set up so that full liquidation to zero could happen overnight.
Any type of case against KNC would be unbelievably expensive. Think hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs... Which would take years, and in the end even if you did win, there is no guarantee you would be able to collect. They could be bankrupt by then.
My point is I would move on. I've been screwed over in business and I know how it feels. You want justice. Just don't waste too much time and energy on finding it because in the end you personally will likely be more prosperous simply letting it go and investing that time and energy into productive activities.
Lastly I would be careful making assertions like you have unless you are 100% positive that they are completely objective and accurate. You don't want to end up on the other side of a libel suit. And trust me, even if a company has no intention of following through with legal recourse, a civil complaint filed in court against you will make your life a nightmare... You cant ignore such things. Simply getting them to withdraw the complaint in exchange for an apology could prove very costly on your end.
Good luck, hopefully it will all work out.
Strato
I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts... More advice.
Everything you've listed above all sounds well and good "rationally", but the truth is a class action lawsuit, or even filing individual civil complaints would likely prove to be a waste of time.
I've had my fair share of legal battles running my business. I've been on both sides of the table, that having sued, or tried, and having been sued or tried.
First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws. The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.
Second, a number of the items you listed, such as "dangerous product due to over wattage on cables"... You can't sue someone for selling a dangerous product. You can only sue for actual damages and punitive damages. Punitive wouldn't apply here, so unless the unit did overheat, causing a fire, which burned down your house, there's nothing to sue for.
Items 2,3,4 would be based around Fraud, which is extremely hard to prove. In order to win a fraud tort claim in most countries, you have to prove, yes prove, that their intention from the very beginning was to screw over their customers. I don't see how you would be able to do that. KNC would certainly claim that they had every good intention of following through, but had business problems, losses, etc. Fraud must be intentional from the outset, as in a company set itself up with the sole purpose to defraud its customers. I don't see that as very likely, nor would it be even feasible to prove.
Lastly, no lawyer is going to touch this. I imagine many people paid for their miner pre-orders with bitcoin. Well, that money is long gone. You can't bleed a stone, and I would expect the holdings of KNC are set up so that full liquidation to zero could happen overnight.
Any type of case against KNC would be unbelievably expensive. Think hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs... Which would take years, and in the end even if you did win, there is no guarantee you would be able to collect. They could be bankrupt by then.
My point is I would move on. I've been screwed over in business and I know how it feels. You want justice. Just don't waste too much time and energy on finding it because in the end you personally will likely be more prosperous simply letting it go and investing that time and energy into productive activities.
Lastly I would be careful making assertions like you have unless you are 100% positive that they are completely objective and accurate. You don't want to end up on the other side of a libel suit. And trust me, even if a company has no intention of following through with legal recourse, a civil complaint filed in court against you will make your life a nightmare... You cant ignore such things. Simply getting them to withdraw the complaint in exchange for an apology could prove very costly on your end.
Good luck, hopefully it will all work out.
Strato
Updates marked as orange.
This thread collects information on relevant authorities and their replies about KnCMiner's business practices. I will do my best to update this post as we get more responses from the authorities. The idea is to avoid double work for the agencies/authorities and us.
There is an option to organize a class action suit. See my other thread if you are interested.
Contacted authorities and websites
Change.org petition
Please participate, it can only help! It has now been passed on to the swedish consumer
Konsumentverket - swedish consumer agency
They had no interest dealing with me and were extremely unhelpful. They only help swedish residents.
If you are a swedish resident, can you please contact them?
You can find your local bureau here.
*Swedish legal aid
If I understand correctly you can still apply for it as a foreigner! Please read the page whether you fulfill certain requirements, particularly if your financial base is less than ~36000$ per year.
*Your Europe - National Contacts
A great resource to find centres for consumer advice (ECC-Net), ombudsman and alternative dispute resolution mechanisms for your EU country of residence.
European Consumer Centre Network (ECC)
I have contacted the ECC for the UK, and for Services. They said that bitcoin mining may be classed as a business activity and I may be considered a business. However, it is unclear how a judge would see this. They promised to contact the swedish consumer centre for advise. They have referred me to the EEN (see below) for advise as a business.
Enterprise Europe Network
I have contacted the EEN in the UK and asked about consumer vs. business, false advertising and fire hazard. They were very polite and helpful on the phone and promised to look into these matters after an email with all details.
The Swedish Bar Association
I have been looking for a lawyer here. I have contacted several lawyers, but have not got a reply back yet. One commercial lawyer replied, but I believe following the "consumer" route is more promising at this point. He also wanted a substantial retainer payment right away.
Do you know a good swedish lawyer?
*The National Board for Consumer Disputes
"Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. [...] The Board's recommendations are not binding, but the majority of companies follow them. [...] It usually takes about six months from the claim to a decision"
NOTE: They do NOT provide advice for individual cases.
TODO: contact them to start the process.
*ANEC - Consumer Voice in Standardisaton
I reported the safety issues to them. They were interested on the phone and I have submitted a detailed letter to them explaining the fire hazard. I'd expect that they refer me to yet another organisation. Let's see.
If you have personal experience with the fire hazard or have information to add to my write up below, please contact me or the ANEC!
Further action
Contacting their VC investors may be interesting.
Which authorities in Sweden investigate fraud?
*Direct Selling Association UK
Only handles disputes between consumers and their members. KnCMiner is obviously not a member.
*Other Ideas
Consumer Portal of the EC - there's lots to read and more information.
European e-Justice portal - gives information for mediation services. May be interesting, I need to follow up on that.
Citizens Advice Bureau UK are usually only dealing with consumer issues within the UK. However, they may be able to advise whether bitcoin mining is a business activity in the UK. If I'm not a business, then the local legal system may be relevant and I can get a claim in a UK court.
Points where KnC may break the law
1) KnCMiner sells potentially dangerous products.
1.1) Fire hazard
KnCMiner's Neptune draws 300-400W per cube through 1xPCI-e 8pin connector, which is spec'ed at 150W Wiki. This poses a fire hazard and there are reports of melting cables and fires operating the KnCMiner Neptune [1]
TODO: What are the relevant authorities, if at all?
1.2) KnCMiner does not CE (or FCC) certify its products
Background and authorities: CE advisor, EU, Consumer Lobby].
It is unclear whether the CE marking is required for KnC, as their products operate at 12V DC and do not come with a PSU. The regulations on Low Voltage Electrical Equipment apply only to devices operating at 75V-1500V. KnC apparently doesn't ship a PSU to avoid the CE marking. The regulators may see this differently, as it is a deliberate attempt to side step regulation and as there is a high risk of fire.
TODO: contact authorities (e.g. Consumer Lobby) and find out whether there is a breach of regulations.
2) KnCMiner sells to consumers but avoids consumer rights
2.1) I have paid VAT. I did not and do not run a business. My contract of employment does not allow me to run a business.
2.3) KnCMiner has made no effort to require business information and to sell to businesses only.
2.4) KnCMiner's business depends on selling a (large? how large?) percentage to consumers.
2.5) KnCMiner did not advertise on the order page that it is a "business only" sale. I did not expect to waive all my rights as a consumer and the protection I get as a layman in court. Apparently I am now expected to deal with the full complexity of contract law as a layman.
2.6) In conclusion, KnC's T&C state "for business use only" so that they can avoid consumer rights.
This document has more details on the definition of a consumer (ty mwizard). The uncertainty remains, as bitcoin mining may be considered a "production" and hence a business activity. The most interesting bits:
3) False advertising to increase sales
This could be a case of fraud and business misconduct, as KnCMiner made false representations to increase sales.
3.1) Delivery date
3.1.1) KnCMiner advertised on the order page that the Titan "will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014" and "Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014". I consider the first statement to be binding.
3.1.2) A delivery date in Q2 2014 seems entirely impossible. The purpose was to increase sales. TODO: can an expert on ASIC development confirm the timeline for a 28nm device from RTL, tape-out to delivery?
3.1.3) The T&C 8.1 mention "The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner". This is markedly different to their advertising on the website.
3.2) Specifications
3.2.1) KnCMiner confirmed 300MH/s for around 800W of power.
3.2.2) KnCMiner's Titan uses 1100W according to their public news or 1160W according to their forum post, 37.5% - 45% more than was confirmed and advertised.
4) KnCMiner acts in full conflict to the interest of their customers
This point is somewhat speculative. This may again be a case of fraud and business misconduct at least according to UK legislation, as they have failed to disclose relevant information.
4.1) In principle, new mining devices are valuable because they are rare.
4.2) Selling Batch 2 shortly after Batch 1 for effectively 50% of the price is damaging the interests of their Batch 1 customers.
4.3) They did not disclose their intent for a Batch 2 at the time of Batch 1 pre-order, although it was material for the decision to order or not. Most customers would not have ordered if they had known the intent and pricing for Batch 2.
This thread collects information on relevant authorities and their replies about KnCMiner's business practices. I will do my best to update this post as we get more responses from the authorities. The idea is to avoid double work for the agencies/authorities and us.
There is an option to organize a class action suit. See my other thread if you are interested.
Contacted authorities and websites
Change.org petition
Please participate, it can only help! It has now been passed on to the swedish consumer
Konsumentverket - swedish consumer agency
They had no interest dealing with me and were extremely unhelpful. They only help swedish residents.
If you are a swedish resident, can you please contact them?
You can find your local bureau here.
*Swedish legal aid
If I understand correctly you can still apply for it as a foreigner! Please read the page whether you fulfill certain requirements, particularly if your financial base is less than ~36000$ per year.
*Your Europe - National Contacts
A great resource to find centres for consumer advice (ECC-Net), ombudsman and alternative dispute resolution mechanisms for your EU country of residence.
European Consumer Centre Network (ECC)
I have contacted the ECC for the UK, and for Services. They said that bitcoin mining may be classed as a business activity and I may be considered a business. However, it is unclear how a judge would see this. They promised to contact the swedish consumer centre for advise. They have referred me to the EEN (see below) for advise as a business.
Enterprise Europe Network
I have contacted the EEN in the UK and asked about consumer vs. business, false advertising and fire hazard. They were very polite and helpful on the phone and promised to look into these matters after an email with all details.
The Swedish Bar Association
I have been looking for a lawyer here. I have contacted several lawyers, but have not got a reply back yet. One commercial lawyer replied, but I believe following the "consumer" route is more promising at this point. He also wanted a substantial retainer payment right away.
Do you know a good swedish lawyer?
*The National Board for Consumer Disputes
"Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. [...] The Board's recommendations are not binding, but the majority of companies follow them. [...] It usually takes about six months from the claim to a decision"
NOTE: They do NOT provide advice for individual cases.
TODO: contact them to start the process.
*ANEC - Consumer Voice in Standardisaton
I reported the safety issues to them. They were interested on the phone and I have submitted a detailed letter to them explaining the fire hazard. I'd expect that they refer me to yet another organisation. Let's see.
If you have personal experience with the fire hazard or have information to add to my write up below, please contact me or the ANEC!
Further action
Contacting their VC investors may be interesting.
Which authorities in Sweden investigate fraud?
*Direct Selling Association UK
Only handles disputes between consumers and their members. KnCMiner is obviously not a member.
*Other Ideas
Consumer Portal of the EC - there's lots to read and more information.
European e-Justice portal - gives information for mediation services. May be interesting, I need to follow up on that.
Citizens Advice Bureau UK are usually only dealing with consumer issues within the UK. However, they may be able to advise whether bitcoin mining is a business activity in the UK. If I'm not a business, then the local legal system may be relevant and I can get a claim in a UK court.
Points where KnC may break the law
1) KnCMiner sells potentially dangerous products.
1.1) Fire hazard
KnCMiner's Neptune draws 300-400W per cube through 1xPCI-e 8pin connector, which is spec'ed at 150W Wiki. This poses a fire hazard and there are reports of melting cables and fires operating the KnCMiner Neptune [1]
TODO: What are the relevant authorities, if at all?
1.2) KnCMiner does not CE (or FCC) certify its products
Background and authorities: CE advisor, EU, Consumer Lobby].
It is unclear whether the CE marking is required for KnC, as their products operate at 12V DC and do not come with a PSU. The regulations on Low Voltage Electrical Equipment apply only to devices operating at 75V-1500V. KnC apparently doesn't ship a PSU to avoid the CE marking. The regulators may see this differently, as it is a deliberate attempt to side step regulation and as there is a high risk of fire.
TODO: contact authorities (e.g. Consumer Lobby) and find out whether there is a breach of regulations.
2) KnCMiner sells to consumers but avoids consumer rights
2.1) I have paid VAT. I did not and do not run a business. My contract of employment does not allow me to run a business.
2.3) KnCMiner has made no effort to require business information and to sell to businesses only.
2.4) KnCMiner's business depends on selling a (large? how large?) percentage to consumers.
2.5) KnCMiner did not advertise on the order page that it is a "business only" sale. I did not expect to waive all my rights as a consumer and the protection I get as a layman in court. Apparently I am now expected to deal with the full complexity of contract law as a layman.
2.6) In conclusion, KnC's T&C state "for business use only" so that they can avoid consumer rights.
This document has more details on the definition of a consumer (ty mwizard). The uncertainty remains, as bitcoin mining may be considered a "production" and hence a business activity. The most interesting bits:
Quote
Accordingly, a consumer is a natural person, who is acting outside the scope of an economic activity (trade, business, craft, liberal profession).
[...] some countries treat them (mixed transactions) as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries)
In the UK, companies may rely on consumer protection against unfair terms if they purchase goods of a type they do not ordinarily deal with.
[...] some countries treat them (mixed transactions) as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries)
In the UK, companies may rely on consumer protection against unfair terms if they purchase goods of a type they do not ordinarily deal with.
3) False advertising to increase sales
This could be a case of fraud and business misconduct, as KnCMiner made false representations to increase sales.
3.1) Delivery date
3.1.1) KnCMiner advertised on the order page that the Titan "will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014" and "Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014". I consider the first statement to be binding.
3.1.2) A delivery date in Q2 2014 seems entirely impossible. The purpose was to increase sales. TODO: can an expert on ASIC development confirm the timeline for a 28nm device from RTL, tape-out to delivery?
3.1.3) The T&C 8.1 mention "The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner". This is markedly different to their advertising on the website.
3.2) Specifications
3.2.1) KnCMiner confirmed 300MH/s for around 800W of power.
3.2.2) KnCMiner's Titan uses 1100W according to their public news or 1160W according to their forum post, 37.5% - 45% more than was confirmed and advertised.
4) KnCMiner acts in full conflict to the interest of their customers
This point is somewhat speculative. This may again be a case of fraud and business misconduct at least according to UK legislation, as they have failed to disclose relevant information.
4.1) In principle, new mining devices are valuable because they are rare.
4.2) Selling Batch 2 shortly after Batch 1 for effectively 50% of the price is damaging the interests of their Batch 1 customers.
4.3) They did not disclose their intent for a Batch 2 at the time of Batch 1 pre-order, although it was material for the decision to order or not. Most customers would not have ordered if they had known the intent and pricing for Batch 2.
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