Topic: Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune - page 3. (Read 11418 times)

Well what a surprise.

KNC don't like the truth being posted on their site.

I noticed that some of your links didn't work out.
And you have the link to the police in 'Södermanland'. Don't think it metter that mutch but more correct should be to Stockholm: http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Stockholms-lan/

I reported KNC for both of these
Unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Oskaliga-avtalsvillkor/
For failing to inform their customers the products were non refundable before purchase

Dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Farlig-vara/
400 watts a cube+ 1 PCI-e connector = FIRE. I uploaded a few pictures of burnt KNC connectors and cables

Here is the main page in case the links go bad http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/

I'll be reporting KNC to ARN as well http://www.arn.se/ .
I've got A LOT of stuff against KNC to put together so it may take a couple of days, but the more people that do it the more they will take notice.

I would also report them here http://www.econsumer.gov/english/report/overview.shtm
Interestingly this site is run by the FTC in the U.S, but it deals with international complaints. Probably a good place to file one.

Don't forget to report them to the police http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Stockholms-lan/
and file an application for payment with the baliffs https://www.kronofogden.se/Ansokaombetalningsforelaggande.html

 I'll be doing that if my invoice isn't paid by its due day this week.

This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

edit: Thanks VarChar, changed the links

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/
It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

I've only heard it once from a person on their forums. He wanted to not accept the delivery and KnC said any undelivered item would be left with the shipping company until you either pick it up or the shipping company destroys it.

It seems quite odd to me, but it does fit with their overall behavior.

Thank you very much for doing this! It's very helpful! I invite you for a few drinks or lunch if you ever come to London.

I'll call them tomorrow. Never heard anything about the destruction. Do I understands you correct that they say that they will destory it?

No sorry I dont know anything about any lawers, I'll ask konsumentverket that as well. Perhaps they can help out, or maybe not. But I'll ask.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Lets just merge these threads.

Yes and no. Simply saying that I am a company does not make me a company. It is up to a judge and the law to decide whether I am a company or a consumer in that case.

The problem with all laws is to define when they are applicable. Hence the DSR's that I have cited above (as a crude google-translation) define first what is a consumer and what is a trader. So the question is really whether I am a consumer as defined by the DSR and have acted primarily for purposes outside business activities.

Is the google translation actually accurate?

I don't mind at all paying to ship it back. However, I believe KnC will reply that they do not accept it shipped back - at which point I believe that it is sufficient to keep it in custody until the matter is settled.

I don't think they need to state "non-refundable". That is implied by selling to business only. So you either argue that you are a consumer not a business, or you show that they have broken the contract to a degree that allows you to cancel as a business.

But that's only my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

Fact: Batch 1 never stated to be a non-refundable product, nowhere. yet they claim it's non-refundable.

Fact: Their product page says Uses a standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX). Yet their actual/new specs recommendations say 2 x 750w or 2 x 850w power supplies.

My current thoughts revolve around the points below all of which don't require I am a consumer! Of course I would still argue that I am a consumer and provide evidence for it (tax returns, full-time employment contract).

However, I believe most points below are not clear cut. There's no guarantee a judge would rule in our favor, as KnC's T&C were written by weasels. Point 1. is excluded by their T&C, Point 2. has changed over time and may not be part of the contract, and point 3. is something a business may have to deal with to some degree.

1. Late Delivery
1.1 shipping may not have begun in Q2/Q3
Their order page said "will be shipping in Q2/Q3" and "shipping begins Q2/Q3". KnC ships now to fulfill this promise. However, the product they ship is unfinished and does not work as promised.According to their T&C "KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery [...]". I would argue KnC has not shipped the product yet and hence has not fulfilled their contract yet! See 2. for details.

1.2 Q2 was not achievable
KnC implicitly admits it themselves. It's great! KnC stated in their news that the Titan was "progressing as expected and we plan to ship in Q3" and "we see no delays in the production process so far" (June 30, 2014) and that they "see no delays in production so far and expect to start shipping well before the end of Q3" (July 28, 2014). The first time they have admitted to a possible delay was "fab yield is not as good as we hoped for" (September 11, 2014).

2. Below/Different Specification
"KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification [...]". To my understanding it implies that my miner should perform at 300MH/s and 800-1000W no matter when I have ordered. Is this a correct interpretation of "at all times" or do they mean "at the time the contract was concluded"? These specifications have been published in official news updates of KnC. KnC has also stated that of course all customers get the benefit of the performance increase.

2.1 power requirements are 1160W not 800W
2.2 Does not run on an 800-1000W PSU
It should be possible to get compensation for this. After all, we are considered businesses by KnC!
2.3 The Titan struggles to run at 300MH/s
According to customer experience the Titan requires constant reboots and does not achieve 300MH/s. This may be fixed with the  new firmware. It would be best if I had written evidence that the miner did not work as expected in Q2/Q3. Please contact me if you happen to have an early Titan that doesn't work as expected.
2.4 Changed casing from Jupiter form factor to Neptune
Probably not important enough to go for a refund. However, did the Jupiter suffer the fire hazard problem? If not then this may be relevant.


3. Electrical setup is complex
3.1 A Standard ATX PSU may not be sufficient
The PSU PCIe-connector required is a 45750 Mini-Fit® Plus HCS Crimp Terminal Crimped to 16 AWG wire.
I am not an electricial and I am not able to deal with this.

3.2 Not CE certified (etc.)
From their FAQ: "We want to ship as fast as possible. If we included a power supply, the certification process would be a longer and we'd have a lot of variations to design that would take precious time from your mining opportunity". This should have been made clear at the time of the order, not hidden in some FAQ.

3.3. Sold as a Developer Kit (not sure where it said this)
I'm NOT a developer even if I am a business. KnC has a duty to make this clear at the time of the order.



Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

Im from Sweden and I talked with konsumenterket several months ago when I were in the same situation with the Neptune.
I ordered it earlie so I had the possibility to refund it. It were what they told me. And what they told me was as long as my status is 'paid' is it okey to refund. So when I wanted to refund they told me that it was to late. Because it had gone too long time. And the Neptune were in a state where it was impossibble/to late to refund.

Then I called 'konsumentverket'. Talked alot, to mutch to write here but in short I told them my story. And what they could guess without knowing was that I should have the law on my side, in other words the law with the possibility to refund and ship the product back to them if it is within 2 weeks after I received it.
Their homepage should really show that you buy as a company and not as a person. It should be really hard to miss that part, it isn't enough to add a paragraf in their terms and conditions.

So the first part should be to report it to konsumentverket.
The second part is to go to ARN (allmänna reklamationsverket), there will it be a process up to 6 months before they have the result. And that result is only a recommendation. With other words, KnC doesn't need to follow ARN's recommendation.
If they choose to not then it's part three, go to trial.
If the product have a value over X SEK (doesn't remember but I think X is around 25 000 sek - 30 000 sek (1$ = ~7 sek)) then you need to pay for the trial if you loose.

I choosed to not begin this process. I had in my mind to report them to konsumentverket, only for 'mark them', no company wants to be there.
But the time went on and I had to put my own time on other things, like try to sell it. And that is what I did, I got ~ +-0 so im 'happy'.

However as a Swede I could help you guys if you need. I could not lay all my time on it but there is maybe something that I can do for you.

Hey Jomay, glad I could help you with Alpha, If Swedish law is as robust as UK law we have a good chance of restitution from KNC. My strategy may be different from yours, but as I advised Alpha customers I don't think its wise to show your hand on an open forum. So like you I'm playing my cards close to my chest. I suggest we PM each other and compare notes. I'm putting everything I have in a PDF and writing up a narrative, once I have it all laid out I'll give you a shout and we'll take it from there.

Hopefully with all the Titan horror stories flying around this thread may pick up more traction and we can apply pressure as a group. In the words of Alpha Technology, I'll update you "soon®"

Hi Mishax1,
I've initially created the other thread to gauge interest in a class action type lawsuit. This thread is simply to discuss which points are relevant for a potential lawsuit. I did not want this thread to be full of customers stating they are unhappy. Facts is what wins a lawsuit, I hope you understand.

I'm pretty underwhelmed at the level of interest these threads attracted so far.

Maybe we should merge those threads - Class action against kncminer.com

Hey retro, great to hear from you on here! You actually helped me to get a refund from Alpha Tech, so it's only fair if I helped you a bit with information on here! Oh, and I've also promised KnC to be a proper pain in the a..

It'd be great to collaborate on this case, join forces and share evidence. I've not updated this with all details regarding my actions, as I think KnC may benefit if they know what I am up to. I have also sent a letter requesting a cancellation and refund. I think that the clock now works for me at this point.

I'm continuously collecting snapshots and evidence on KnC's forums. TBH I don't understand why so many people still post on KnC's website given that they police the forum and delete posts.

Regarding the Y-cables, I don't think these were KnC's Y-cables, nor do I think anyone has received them yet. It is unlikely that the KnC provided cables are of better quality, though.

Jomay. That's a great list you've put together Thanks mate!!  I'd also add we should contact the local and National Swedish press. I will be contacting the Swedish consulate in Britain and the British Consulate in Sweden for advice and to report that KNC products are unsafe.

We should also submit a report online to the Swedish consumer agency, I know you said they were useless but if they get enough complaints they will probably look into it.
Report unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Oskaliga-avtalsvillkor/
Report dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Farlig-vara/

Interestingly the FTC stepped in to shut down BFL so our American cousins rightly believed BFL customers were consumers, not businesses. This should work in our favour. The HMRC brief regarding bitcoin also helps.

From the HMRC website: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/vat/brief0914.htm (worth a read)

"Chargeable gains: CT and CGT - if a profit or loss on a currency contract is not within trading profits or otherwise within the loan relationship rules, it would normally be taxable as a chargeable gain or allowable as a loss for CT or CGT purposes. Gains and losses incurred on Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies are chargeable or allowable for CGT if they accrue to an individual or, for CT on chargeable gains if they accrue to a company."

So if you mine and hold your coins you can sell them off once or twice in the tax year and only pay Capital Gains Tax as an individual. But if you mine and sell regularly for fiat income you would be considered a business and liable to Income Tax. Bitcoins/cryptos are not considered a currency by HMRC or any government on the planet. They are like shares, you only pay tax on them when you sell them for a gain. So owning and running a miner does not automatically make you a business, what you do with the mined coins is key.

The law is different in America though where stored coins are taxable.