Core have been derelict in their duties. - page 6.

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on March 23, 2016, 07:04:57 PM

The full block situation
================

Blocks are 70% full, on average. (figure from Lauda)
This implies 30% "usable" blockspace still available for use/continued expansion. Not so.

Why would you do this? This percentage isn't even based on some 'extensive' research but rather a quick analysis. If you want more accurate numbers, then you would have to do some digging yourself and find your definition of 'non-spam transactions'.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on March 23, 2016, 07:04:57 PM

When the above starts happening, in a week or two, It will very quickly become chaos.

Why would something extremely bad happen within the next 14 days?

Quote from: rizzlarolla on March 23, 2016, 07:04:57 PM

With a little foresight Core could have given us 2mb couldn't they? To tide us over.

A 2 MB block size limit without added limitations is potentially unsafe.

rizzlarolla

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Bitcoin is working well today. Blocks are only nearly full.
A couple of comments I've seen elsewhere, not directly aimed at this thread, but missing some understanding?

Quote

"These threads would have more impact if there weren't any empty blocks."

Indeed. But there will always be empty blocks! Even when the mempool is full.

Quote

"We don't need an immediate blocksize increase. Half of the recent blocks generated are under 512k."

But we will need something very soon, when all blocks ARE full, to allow the present adoption rate to continued.
(unless we all slow down/stop using bitcoin and wait for segwit?)

Core should have had the ability to increase block size "slightly" in their plan, tried and tested, in case it were "suddenly" needed. (and it will be needed)
And a slight increase (0.1mb) would make a direct and noticable difference to a full block situation. (10% more capacity/growth)
(when blocks are all full, and beyond, bitcoin will be totally different from when blocks are nearly full)
Core should have had the foersight to see this situation coming. (or even the possibility of this situation, which hasn't happened yet...)

When all blocks are full, and beyond, Core support will evaporate.
Core themselves are (will be) pushing loyalists to Classic, as the only option for swift consensus to resolve tx gridlock.

Will Bitcoin wait for Core?
In a crisis, achievable consensus will be so much more obvious.

rizzlarolla

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Bitcoin is working fine today. as expected.
Last 20 blocks, 16 full, 1 empty, 3 not full.

Expected comfirmation times - fast
Fee paying mempool backlog - very low

countryfree

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I created a similar topic a few weeks ago. You can't deny that BTC has problems. The block size issue which limits growth should have been fixed last year. I guess many miners are resisting the change till the next halving. When that happen, several miners will suddenly find their mining unprofitable, so change shall be easier.

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Quote from: exstasie on March 25, 2016, 03:53:36 PM

What's the rush? Gavin and Hearn said bitcoin was going to die if block size didn't increase 6 months-1 year ago. Those were blatant fear mongering lies, and the network is robust and working fine.

The network is working great, I agree. At the moment.
But it will not, at some time. (if bitcoin is growing)
Unless a solution is implemented first.

As core's solution starts with segwit, I guess that makes segwit implementation time relevant here.

Do you know when segwit is scheduled to happen? (is there much chance of a delay)
Is there a back up plan if segwit is delayed?

exstasie

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Quote from: ATguy on March 25, 2016, 04:22:17 PM

Quote from: exstasie on March 25, 2016, 03:53:36 PM

What's the rush? Gavin and Hearn said bitcoin was going to die if block size didn't increase 6 months-1 year ago. Those were blatant fear mongering lies, and the network is robust and working fine.

Not die, but warning the Bitcoin adoption can slow down instead, which is starting to happening imo, and can only get worse if there even happen situation to not be enought onchain space for new users (then Bitcoin adoption basically stops).

Evidence? This is the doomsday scenario, but there are no signs that it's happening. In any case, adoption is a tertiary concern compared to keeping the system decentralized.

Altcoins saw hype cycles in 2014 as well, when bitcoin was in a long term, painful downtrend. Not evidence of anything. The price of bitcoin is up 77% YoY. If anything, that is indication that demand is only increasing.

Quote from: ATguy on March 25, 2016, 04:22:17 PM

Quote from: exstasie on March 25, 2016, 03:53:36 PM

Any capacity increase from Segwit is just a temporary measure. I would hope that the signature discount is lowered in the future.

If you mean fee discounts for Segwit transactions then it is myth as well, miners are the ones who decides about fee policy, and nothing prevent them charge for the same work (and orphan risk) the same fee (based on the size of transaction, including signature). I mean while Core software can include such fee discounts for Segwit transactions, miners are free to modify the fee policy to their liking.

There is nothing to stop them from doing so without Segwit..... there is no guarantee that you can have free transactions, no matter what. Cool

ATguy

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Quote from: exstasie on March 25, 2016, 03:53:36 PM

What's the rush? Gavin and Hearn said bitcoin was going to die if block size didn't increase 6 months-1 year ago. Those were blatant fear mongering lies, and the network is robust and working fine.

Not die, but warning the Bitcoin adoption can slow down instead, which is starting to happening imo, and can only get worse if there even happen situation to not be enought onchain space for new users (then Bitcoin adoption basically stops).

Quote from: exstasie on March 25, 2016, 03:53:36 PM

Any capacity increase from Segwit is just a temporary measure. I would hope that the signature discount is lowered in the future.

If you mean fee discounts for Segwit transactions then it is myth as well, miners are the ones who decides about fee policy, and nothing prevent them charge for the same work (and orphan risk) the same fee (based on the size of transaction, including signature). I mean while Core software can include such fee discounts for Segwit transactions, miners are free to modify the fee policy to their liking.

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Quote from: rizzlarolla on March 25, 2016, 02:48:22 PM

Quote from: exstasie on March 24, 2016, 02:34:40 AM

I think communication was lacking some time ago, but they have made major improvements there. Join the new announcements mailing list: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/03/15/announcement-list/ Talk to devs on IRC, Slack or the dev mailing list, or through bitcoincore.org. Several devs are active on Twitter and Reddit and receptive to discussion of the issues.

Regarding your concerns, they released a roadmap regarding capacity increases 3 months ago: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/21/capacity-increase/ And they are making strides with it. Cool

The roadmap shows any capacity increase will be through segwit.
What if segwit gets delayed?
Is there a back up plan?

What's the rush? Gavin and Hearn said bitcoin was going to die if block size didn't increase 6 months-1 year ago. Those were blatant fear mongering lies, and the network is robust and working fine.

Any capacity increase from Segwit is just a temporary measure. I would hope that the signature discount is lowered in the future. The real scaling solutions come post-Segwit. Space-saving Schorr signatures, IBLTs, weak blocks and other relay/bandwidth/validation improvements will make a block size increase safer. And LN will incentivize throughput to move offchain, trustlessly with on-chain settlement. All on the roadmap, all in progress.

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Quote from: gentlemand on March 25, 2016, 02:47:00 PM

I dunno about derelict. I'm sure they believe they're doing their best. They've done a crappy job of conveying that sometimes and the tactics on all sides have been offensive.

Not sure I found the best description. Sounds a bit snooty!
I'm sure the do believe they do their best, but, as a serious team planning bitcoin's future. What about todays users?
(in a couple of weeks, if my theory pans out)

And your right, as usual, all sides are as bad.
Which is why I don't advocate classic either.

Quote from: gentlemand on March 25, 2016, 02:52:20 PM

Quote from: rizzlarolla on March 25, 2016, 02:48:22 PM

The roadmap shows any capacity increase will be through segwit.
What if segwit gets delayed?
Is there a back up plan?

Dunno. I find it a teensy weensy bit fucked up that no one appears to be blinking about something that consists of hundreds of lines of fresh code that's arriving in a few weeks. Doubling the blocksize? SAVE US.

Completely fucked up.

gentlemand

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Quote from: rizzlarolla on March 25, 2016, 02:48:22 PM

The roadmap shows any capacity increase will be through segwit.
What if segwit gets delayed?
Is there a back up plan?

Dunno. I find it a teensy weensy bit fucked up that no one appears to be blinking about something that consists of hundreds of lines of fresh code that's arriving in a few weeks. Doubling the blocksize? SAVE US.

rizzlarolla

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Quote from: exstasie on March 24, 2016, 02:34:40 AM

I think communication was lacking some time ago, but they have made major improvements there. Join the new announcements mailing list: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/03/15/announcement-list/ Talk to devs on IRC, Slack or the dev mailing list, or through bitcoincore.org. Several devs are active on Twitter and Reddit and receptive to discussion of the issues.

Regarding your concerns, they released a roadmap regarding capacity increases 3 months ago: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/21/capacity-increase/ And they are making strides with it. Cool

The roadmap shows any capacity increase will be through segwit.
What if segwit gets delayed?
Is there a back up plan?

gentlemand

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I dunno about derelict. I'm sure they believe they're doing their best. They've done a crappy job of conveying that sometimes and the tactics on all sides have been offensive.

rizzlarolla

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Quote from: 63854 on March 23, 2016, 07:37:05 PM

We shouldn't have to pay fees to send Bitcoins, part of the whole idea of Bitcoin is avoiding fees like those placed on FIAT bank accounts. Either way, something is building in Bitcoin as a whole, and things are going to get very interesting very fast in the near future... Roll Eyes

I think no fees WAS the dream, but the spam attacks put stop to that.

I quite happy paying a fee personally, within reason.
One day bitcoin will rely entirely on tx fees, but not yet!

Quote from: Jet Cash on March 24, 2016, 01:49:53 AM

There are a number of things that Bitcoin users can do to help in the short term. Try to keep transaction sizes low for example. Faucets, sig sponsors and gambling sites could increase their minimum payment levels to try to reduce long chain transactions. I'm sure you can think of many other things. All of these are in our interests, as they will help to keep fees lower.

Bit of a pain though.
Attackers wont see it like that?

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Quote from: adamstgBit on March 23, 2016, 07:18:51 PM

the problem solves itself...

TX that are >72hours old get dropped out of minners mem-pools ( so no the mem-pool will not grow indefinitely )
what will happen is a % of peoples TX will get dropped out of the mempool
fees will rise to the point where poeple no longer want to Transact using bitcoin

problem solved.

Yeah, kind of solves itself..

But the mempool could still grow to capacity I think.
If more get added than dropped.
(and dropped tx's may just get rebroadcast with higher fees)

So, if fees become large enough to really make people (who were happy to pay todays fee) stop tx'ing, so stop using bitcoin,
So driving users away and putting adoption on "hold".
I would say that to be a lack of foresight by Core, to not see the pending situation. (or the possibility of that situation)

Wouldn't it have made sense to have a simple block increase ready for "emergency's"?
(while they work thoroughly on their other, more likely to time slip, projects)

Core could be standing by (prepared, tested and ready) to raise the block limit to, 1,25, or 1.5, or 2mb. Whatever they like. Just in case?
Nearly full blocks don't bother me, it's nice to see bitcoin getting used.
(blocks aren't full yet. just nearly full

)

Wouldn't that have been be a better way for core to have solved this issue?

exstasie

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Quote from: adamstgBit on March 23, 2016, 07:37:21 PM

Core is guilty of having 0 communications with the community.
they are simply unwilling to hear our concerns

I think communication was lacking some time ago, but they have made major improvements there. Join the new announcements mailing list: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/03/15/announcement-list/ Talk to devs on IRC, Slack or the dev mailing list, or through bitcoincore.org. Several devs are active on Twitter and Reddit and receptive to discussion of the issues.

Regarding your concerns, they released a roadmap regarding capacity increases 3 months ago: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/21/capacity-increase/ And they are making strides with it. Cool

Jet Cash

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There are a number of things that Bitcoin users can do to help in the short term. Try to keep transaction sizes low for example. Faucets, sig sponsors and gambling sites could increase their minimum payment levels to try to reduce long chain transactions. I'm sure you can think of many other things. All of these are in our interests, as they will help to keep fees lower.

adamstgBit

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Core is guilty of having 0 communications with the community.
they are simply unwilling to hear our concerns
they simply dismiss stakeholder wish for swift resolution of blocks becoming full, as short sighted greed. when they themselves are blinded by greed, blockstream.
they simply do not understand what the big fuss is about because of the above reasoning i gave.
there suport will hold indefinitely because the first poeple to GTFO will be those who disagree with their idea. ex mike hearn
so now, everything hangs in the balance as we await the second layer to solve all these problems.

63854

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We shouldn't have to pay fees to send Bitcoins, part of the whole idea of Bitcoin is avoiding fees like those placed on FIAT bank accounts. Either way, something is building in Bitcoin as a whole, and things are going to get very interesting very fast in the near future... Roll Eyes

Zeke2345

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Should I take the next 2 weeks off well the fud gets worked out of our system?
Hate these threads poking around today bashing core, really do not want to go through what we did with XT. Issues are fine but it always comes off like pump dump manipulation seeing a blitz on core.

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the problem solves itself...

TX that are >72hours old get dropped out of minners mem-pools ( so no the mem-pool will not grow indefinitely )
what will happen is a % of peoples TX will get dropped out of the mempool
fees will rise to the point where poeple no longer want to Transact using bitcoin

problem solved.

Topic: Core have been derelict in their duties. - page 6. (Read 5159 times)