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Topic: Could China (or similar) take control of Bitcoin? - page 2. (Read 1593 times)

hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 1738
One more hint: there is two hours rule. Two hours is just 7200 seconds. By having five or six blocks with the same time, you can get something like 40k blocks. See? Only 40k blocks per two hours. If they are empty. If they can be easily verified in a fraction of second. If they are mined instantly, and you don't care about difficulty. For 400k blocks, you would need at least 20 hours. On localhost. With perfect network communication. With no missing transactions. With instant block validation, without bloated 1-of-3 bare multisig or other tricks.

See? In case of 600k block reorg, one day may be not enough to even share your great new history, written by the winners. Unless it will be empty, and you would say in your chain, that "Bitcoin was unused for the last 10 years, and all miners created empty blocks for that time".

Edit:
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You wouldn't need to "reverse" anything. Just change the database. Or change the software to ignore the database.
Then you will have an altcoin.

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And what exactly would these nodes do when they were "alerted"?
In case of Value Overflow Incident, the community noticed the flaw, and patched it, before even Satoshi released a new version. Later, he only confirmed that patch, it was applied much earlier by the community. And everything was fixed within 5 hours or so. When the network was in its infancy, and it was not as popular as today. When you didn't even have block explorers as smart as today.

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There is no "they" who will protect the network. It's just an algorithm. And it's proof-of-work, meaning the "owner" of Bitcoin is... whoever or whatever has 51% of the hashrate and that is it.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_is_not_ruled_by_miners

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Again, you wouldn't need to mine anything. No calculations would be necessary. Just software that has had its rules changes and/or its database changed.
Good luck convincing users to run your software. By starting from zero users, it is hard to compete. It is like saying "let's ignore Microsoft, we will deploy our own system, and we will legally force everyone to uninstall Windows". It is simply not gonna happen. What do you want to do? Shut down all computers, rejecting to run your software?
member
Activity: 182
Merit: 47
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Perhaps China could decide that Satoshi's blocks should be given away to charity.
Aha, sure. Good luck going back to the first 210,000 blocks, and reversing years of history.


You wouldn't need to "reverse" anything. Just change the database. Or change the software to ignore the database.

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And not only that: good luck rejecting existing soft-forks, which were activated at certain block heights, and writing a chain, where those checkpoints will be in a different block numbers, or with different block hashes, without alerting thousands of nodes.


And what exactly would these nodes do when they were "alerted"? Who would they complain to? And what difference would it make?

There's no central authority governing Bitcoin.
There's no central authority governing Bitcoin.
There's no central authority governing Bitcoin.

There is no "they" who will protect the network. It's just an algorithm. And it's proof-of-work, meaning the "owner" of Bitcoin is... whoever or whatever has 51% of the hashrate and that is it.

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Is this technically possible?
Technically? Maybe. But if you ever tried to mine 100k blocks or more, even in regtest, [...]

Again, you wouldn't need to mine anything. No calculations would be necessary. Just software that has had its rules changes and/or its database changed.

hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 1738
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Perhaps China could decide that Satoshi's blocks should be given away to charity.
Aha, sure. Good luck going back to the first 210,000 blocks, and reversing years of history. And not only that: good luck rejecting existing soft-forks, which were activated at certain block heights, and writing a chain, where those checkpoints will be in a different block numbers, or with different block hashes, without alerting thousands of nodes.

More than that: good luck reorging thousands of blocks, from more than one halving, and triggering all block explorers, and other databases. And also good luck triggering all pruned nodes, that they have to re-download the whole chain from scratch, and rebuild their database. Good luck doing all of that unnoticed, without a single topic on the forum saying "ALERT! HUGE NETWORK REORG!".

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Is this technically possible?
Technically? Maybe. But if you ever tried to mine 100k blocks or more, even in regtest, with minimal difficulty, on CPU, then you know, how slow it is on CPU, when you can mine hundreds of blocks per second. And imagine, that you don't have regtest difficulty, but mainnet difficulty. Even using "the longest chain" instead of "the heaviest chain" means, that your regtest experiment is 2^32 times easier to execute. But if you take into account the current chainwork, then guess what: collecting one million newly-created BTC in fees alone is much, much more profitable, than executing such attack.

To sum up: mining new coins on charity's address is easier and more profitable, than forcing exactly Satoshi's coins to land there.

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What would be the technical implications of China doing this?
1. Rejecting existing soft-forks, and re-activating them under new rules (or leaving them unactivated).
2. Rebuilding databases in a lot of nodes in the world, triggering a huge debug log report for all node runners.
3. Triggering blockchain redownload for many, if not all, pruned nodes.
4. Alerting a lot of full node runners, that they are back in "Initial Blockchain Download" stage, which will cause a lot of questions.
5. Deciding to increase the supply or not, by deciding, if some coins should be burned in the coinbase transaction, in OP_RETURN outputs, and so on.
6. Seriously changing the total chainwork, so it will produce even more detailed debug logs in all node runners.
7. Being blacklisted by a lot of nodes, because of exceeding P2P network traffic limits, and being marked as "misbehaved node" by most of the network.

And so on, and so on. If you want to experience it, then use your CPU, run Bitcoin Core in regtest mode, mine 800k blocks, and try to trigger for example 600k block reorg. Good luck. If you see, what happens, when you do it on your CPU, with minimal possible difficulty, then you can go further, if you are patient enough to observe it.

Once I mined something like 250k blocks in regtest. It took way too much time, to not be noticed, even if it would be some kind of public test network.

Edit: One more thing to note. Currently, developers are trying to kill testnet3. It is just a test network. It was resetted previously two times, and it is going to be resetted again. You can see, how many people are complaining about it. You can also see, how many people are complaining, where some altcoins are resetted, hard-forked, or changed without reaching consensus. Judging by that data, you can only imagine, how loud people could scream, if similar things would happen to the mainnet.

Even with fiat currencies, if you mess up with money, you can make a war. In the crypto world, people are even more focused on some values like decentralization, and all newspapers would be flooded by headlines like "BITCOIN HUGE CHAIN REORG" if you would try to even trigger more than 100 confirmations chain reorganization, not to mention more, like reorging beyond more than one halving, to get access to Satoshi's coins, and to not let them to be sent to Satoshi in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Your debate is based on "what if", without giving a convincing argument how actually in the real world they will do what you believe that they will do. If it were that simple, then it would have already happened during 2021, no? Cool

The biggest mistake is to draw a line between not willing to, not caring enough to and being unable to do it.
Just because China doesn't care that much about it it doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to launch an attack, just as how you can't say that for example the US won't be able to launch a full invasion of Cuba, the fact that they haven't doesn't mean they can't.

It is a thing about how much they are willing to lose or to pay for that, everyone said that the prohibition doesn't work and can't be enabled, the middle east would have a story to tell. If everyone caught drinking alcohol in the US during the prohibition would be hanged like in Iran I think the prohibition would have been a success.


That's a straw man. Plus didn't it cross your mind that "China not caring" might be because they know it would be a waste of time, money, and effort?

But if a state-level actor DID attack Bitcoin, and INDEED IF Bitcoin was "defeated", then Bitcoin doesn't have the right to exist. That merely proves that a better system must be built.

Plus how would the full nodes reject them? Ser, all full nodes validate, and if any miner mines an invalid block and/or a block with an invalid transaction that goes against the consensus rules, then the full nodes will reject them/won't let them propagate around the network. They're welcome to waste energy though. They should either work with the network, or not be incentivized.

The bad blocks will not be invalidated, they will just mine 10 empty blocks that will replace the last 8 blocks, then again stay hidden while good miners add the invalidated transactions in another 8 good blocks they again propagate 10 empty blocks denying again all the transactions. And while this happen all legit miners see their previous rewards destroyed and erased from history, how long do you think legit miners will be able to keep up the game?


 BUT first WHERE is the attack?


Pray that there will never be one cause if it happens before the cost would be out of reach for even world powers we're f****.


If an actual state-level attack will need to happen to prove Bitcoin's anti-fragility, then let them attack.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
Your debate is based on "what if", without giving a convincing argument how actually in the real world they will do what you believe that they will do. If it were that simple, then it would have already happened during 2021, no? Cool

The biggest mistake is to draw a line between not willing to, not caring enough to and being unable to do it.
Just because China doesn't care that much about it it doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to launch an attack, just as how you can't say that for example the US won't be able to launch a full invasion of Cuba, the fact that they haven't doesn't mean they can't.

It is a thing about how much they are willing to lose or to pay for that, everyone said that the prohibition doesn't work and can't be enabled, the middle east would have a story to tell. If everyone caught drinking alcohol in the US during the prohibition would be hanged like in Iran I think the prohibition would have been a success.


Plus how would the full nodes reject them? Ser, all full nodes validate, and if any miner mines an invalid block and/or a block with an invalid transaction that goes against the consensus rules, then the full nodes will reject them/won't let them propagate around the network. They're welcome to waste energy though. They should either work with the network, or not be incentivized.

The bad blocks will not be invalidated, they will just mine 10 empty blocks that will replace the last 8 blocks, then again stay hidden while good miners add the invalidated transactions in another 8 good blocks they again propagate 10 empty blocks denying again all the transactions. And while this happen all legit miners see their previous rewards destroyed and erased from history, how long do you think legit miners will be able to keep up the game?

BUT first WHERE is the attack?

Pray that there will never be one cause if it happens before the cost would be out of reach for even world powers we're f****.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
~

But if an Actual Attack threatens the very existence of Bitcoin, then the community will altogether get community consensus to defend it, no?

How? Tell me how you can defend against such an attack, let's say that China manages to get ahold of two similar-sized farms like Anpool and Foundry,  from block 848009 to block 848022 those two pool have managed to mine 13 out of 14 blocks, how and why would node reject them? How would you ban their blocks?
There is no actual mechanism to "defend" against what is a valid block!


Your debate is based on "what if", without giving a convincing argument how actually in the real world they will do what you believe that they will do. If it were that simple, then it would have already happened during 2021, no? Cool

Plus how would the full nodes reject them? Ser, all full nodes validate, and if any miner mines an invalid block and/or a block with an invalid transaction that goes against the consensus rules, then the full nodes will reject them/won't let them propagate around the network. They're welcome to waste energy though. They should either work with the network, or not be incentivized.

About "what if", I accept that it's possible that Bitcoin could be "controlled" by a state-level actor. BUT it would also be possible that the Core Developers, the miners, the economic majority, and the community/users in general will fork away and be in the chain that will be called Bitcoin. The state-level actor chain will not matter, it will be Govcoin with centralized control. Haha.

Again you seem to not understand that even if you fork your chain and keep being legit you have no way to stop the mining entity with 51% attacking the new chain again, this is what happened to ETC:

https://neptunemutual.com/blog/ethereum-classic-51-attacks/

as long as you're not able to have more hashrate than the attacker you're a continuous victim until you change the algorithm and that will last only until they get again the 51% with the new machines.


I accept that that will be a problem, and in theory a problem that will probably make Bitcoin a failure. BUT first WHERE is the attack?

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You keep saying economic majority, developers, miners, but what can they actually do?


If there is an actual attack to "kill Bitcoin", then Core Developers could propose a hard fork that the honest miners and the economic majority should follow, then the economic majority will neither list nor accept anything from Govchain.
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1068
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Have major governments e.g. the US and NATO countries ever (publicly) announced any contingency planning around this problem? Putting a $1.5T asset at risk is something that could rattle the entire world economy. This seems like something they would at least think through?

Like every other persons have said, and as disappointing as this might seem, it's actually technically and practically possible for china to gain control of over 50 percent of the bitcoin hash rate, as well gain control over the network, if they are ready to pay the really high price required for such privilege.

But on the other hand, another question we need to ask ourselves is, if doing this will be worth it for them? I mean, can a government of a country as big as china, abandon all of her major issues, to want to squander their country's resources on taking over the bitcoin network, which also likely will put a very big dent in their reputation worldwide? I think the answer to this question is NO..
And aside china, no other country will want to try this, regardless of how rich and wealthy the country is.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
~

But if an Actual Attack threatens the very existence of Bitcoin, then the community will altogether get community consensus to defend it, no?

How? Tell me how you can defend against such an attack, let's say that China manages to get ahold of two similar-sized farms like Anpool and Foundry,  from block 848009 to block 848022 those two pool have managed to mine 13 out of 14 blocks, how and why would node reject them? How would you ban their blocks?
There is no actual mechanism to "defend" against what is a valid block!


About "what if", I accept that it's possible that Bitcoin could be "controlled" by a state-level actor. BUT it would also be possible that the Core Developers, the miners, the economic majority, and the community/users in general will fork away and be in the chain that will be called Bitcoin. The state-level actor chain will not matter, it will be Govcoin with centralized control. Haha.

Again you seem to not understand that even if you fork your chain and keep being legit you have no way to stop the mining entity with 51% attacking the new chain again, this is what happened to ETC:
https://neptunemutual.com/blog/ethereum-classic-51-attacks/
as long as you're not able to have more hashrate than the attacker you're a continuous victim until you change the algorithm and that will last only until they get again the 51% with the new machines.

You keep saying economic majority, developers, miners, but what can they actually do?

member
Activity: 182
Merit: 47
I don't believe they'd be able to do that, there's bound to be a resistance from a lot of people and at the same time, it's also really difficult for someone to maintain that kind of control because when people get the wind of the scheme of taking control of the network, the community will definitely find a way to make sure that bitcoin wouldn't be succumbing to that control. Also, wouldn't the developers be able to do something about it in the case that bitcoin network gets controlled or something like that?

There are no people controlling Bitcoin.

There is no "community" (in heavy scare quotes) controlling Bitcoin.

Randomly organized "developers" do not control Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is an algorithm. It is in no way centrally controlled, except by a majority of the hashrate.

About "what if", I accept that it's possible that Bitcoin could be "controlled" by a state-level actor. BUT it would also be possible that the Core Developers, the miners, the economic majority, and the community/users in general will fork away and be in the chain that will be called Bitcoin. The state-level actor chain will not matter, it will be Govcoin with centralized control. Haha.

If some entity took over the current Bitcoin chain, it's all of those people you mentioned who wouldn't matter. Anybody, including those people, are free to start over with a completely new network and new blockchain, but the current $1.5 trillion in Bitcoin would be controlled by the attacker, not them.




legendary
Activity: 2982
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★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
Bitcoin's value is derived from trust. I don't think no government wants to fully control it but theoretically if they did, the day a government controls Bitcoin, it's dead. No one would use bitcoin and just move into another coin. Controlling itself might have more than one explanations but anyway it's not a good outlook.
I guess in past at a moment of time, it was technically possible for even a single private company to take control of Bitcoin but they not only didn't do that but also out of moral responsibility decreased it's share so that it won't be capable of taking control of the network. They could have controlled it but no one benefits from it and bitcoin loses it trust.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Theoretically possible, but practically it would be a very expensive attack on the network, which the community and the Economic Majority will get consensus to kick the attacker out of the network - merely for one double-spend. For all of that money spent on buying ASICs and all of that effort on the logistics in setting up their mining farms, it would be more viable/profitable to actually mine Bitcoin, and get paid in Bitcoin.

You can't kick anyone from the network! Permissionless!!! Remember?


But if an Actual Attack threatens the very existence of Bitcoin, then the community will altogether get community consensus to defend it, no?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Plus do you actually believe that it will depend merely on the plebs of BitcoinTalk to defend the network? The Core Developers, the miners, and the economic majority will defend it.

About "what if", I accept that it's possible that Bitcoin could be "controlled" by a state-level actor. BUT it would also be possible that the Core Developers, the miners, the economic majority, and the community/users in general will fork away and be in the chain that will be called Bitcoin. The state-level actor chain will not matter, it will be Govcoin with centralized control. Haha.
sr. member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 416
I don't believe they'd be able to do that, there's bound to be a resistance from a lot of people and at the same time, it's also really difficult for someone to maintain that kind of control because when people get the wind of the scheme of taking control of the network, the community will definitely find a way to make sure that bitcoin wouldn't be succumbing to that control. Also, wouldn't the developers be able to do something about it in the case that bitcoin network gets controlled or something like that? Also, look at China's perspective when it comes to this kind of thing, they don't see the long-term benefit of controlling bitcoin because bitcoin isn't as global as it should be right now, if they really want a way to disrupt the economy, the best thing that they should do is to put all of their efforts into creating their own dollars, what I mean is creating superdollars, that's the way to make things destabilize especially in a USD driven global market.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
Theoretically possible, but practically it would be a very expensive attack on the network, which the community and the Economic Majority will get consensus to kick the attacker out of the network - merely for one double-spend. For all of that money spent on buying ASICs and all of that effort on the logistics in setting up their mining farms, it would be more viable/profitable to actually mine Bitcoin, and get paid in Bitcoin.

You can't kick anyone from the network! Permissionless!!! Remember?
Some miners could collude on accepting only on building their blocks on top of each other and ignore blocks mined by 'the and guy" but as long as the attacker has a 51% and thus more work in it every node will accept their chain, nodes won't be able to tell what is good and what is bad, ghash double spend attack showed that pretty well.
And even forking the chain won't do any good either, that attacker will just abandon their chain and do it again on the new "true" fork, there is absolutely nothing hat can be done in this scenario that doesn't imply centralization and that's just as worse.

As for the money thing, we're talking about a superpower trying to bring down the network if it sees it as a threat, if you are willing to spend 300 billion to bail out your friends to not have your Belt project canceled,  6-8 billion in bringing down a currency perceived as more dangerous than the USD will be looking as peanuts.

Although we could perhaps agree that it's debatable, the Economic Majority in Bitcoin are those who are willing to build things/services that provide more value to the network/community. It's hard to dispute that fact, because if no one from the community follows the miners then how are miners going to be incentivized by a distribution of coins that are going down in value?

It started as this:
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As the theory goes, if China wanted to wreak havoc on the world economy, or if it wanted to extract a ransom, or if it simply wanted to profit by inserting its own blocks, then... it could.

So we're talking about an evil entity bent on destroying things and bankrupting others, economic incentives turn into political ones and the math behind costs and targets is completely different.


member
Activity: 182
Merit: 47

Reading your post made me very confused if you're confused, or I'm confused.

Neither the content in your post made sense, nor did it show that you were trying to understand the point that I was making. Sentient being, what?


Sorry about that. I'll try to clarify.

There are a few responses to this thread that seem to indicate that there is some central authority of people controlling Bitcoin, which there is not.

Most people know that fact alone, but then go on to imagine... a central authority controlling Bitcoin. In other words, they say that if somebody attacks the Bitcoin network in some way, "they will get together and stop it". But who is they? There is no "they". There is just an algorithm written in code. That's the whole point of decentralization.

My point about there being no "sentient being" was just to illustrate that code is not sentient, it just does what it was programmed to do.

Hence if a majority of the hashrate was taken over by malign forces, the software would continue to do... whatever it does. It doesn't matter what people think.

As we discussed in another thread, right now there are two mining companies that make up over half of the Bitcoin hashrate. If these two companies were compelled by a government, or infiltrated clandestinely, or extorted then... the attacker would effectively control Bitcoin in its entirety, and no human being would be able to say any different even if "experts" knew exactly what was happening after the fact.

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823

Although we could perhaps agree that it's debatable, the Economic Majority in Bitcoin are those who are willing to build things/services that provide more value to the network/community. It's hard to dispute that fact, because if no one from the community follows the miners then how are miners going to be incentivized by a distribution of coins that are going down in value?

The miners' hashing power majority are not the "all-power" in the network. I believe the UASF proved that. The miners could play a political game, but actually, all they want to be is to be incentivized for the security provided. But IF ALL of them are taken over, then the same problem, the community will probably get to consensus to change the mining algorithm. Perhaps, I don't know.

Plus a 51% attack will give the majority hashing power to censor transactions, not actually steal or change wallet balances. The army of full nodes will reject/not let those transactions/blocks propagate.


Bitcoin is an algorithm, not a sentient being. There is no human decision being made when a wallet connects to a node, and no human decisions being made in any other important part of the system.

I'm sort of blown away here that, for all of the talk of decentralization around Bitcoin, many don't seem to fully understand the implications of that.

There is no "owner" of Bitcoin. There is no "committee" determining Bitcoin's pathway for each transaction. There is nothing to compel nodes from taking the recommendations of a central committee. There could be a "consensus" achieved among humans in some virtual room somewhere, but that doesn't mean anything if 51%+ of the nodes adopt it.

And while the nodes couldn't actually change the contents of people's individual wallets, that content is rather meaningless if the network doesn't agree with it. In other words, nodes could simply re-write the chain and make up whatever fiction they wanted. If somebody complained and said the chain integrity was false now, they'd effectively reply, "too bad, we're the majority hashrate and what we say goes".


¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reading your post made me very confused if you're confused, or I'm confused.



Neither the content in your post made sense, nor did it show that you were trying to understand the point that I was making. Sentient being, what?

But OK, you do you.
member
Activity: 182
Merit: 47

Although we could perhaps agree that it's debatable, the Economic Majority in Bitcoin are those who are willing to build things/services that provide more value to the network/community. It's hard to dispute that fact, because if no one from the community follows the miners then how are miners going to be incentivized by a distribution of coins that are going down in value?

The miners' hashing power majority are not the "all-power" in the network. I believe the UASF proved that. The miners could play a political game, but actually, all they want to be is to be incentivized for the security provided. But IF ALL of them are taken over, then the same problem, the community will probably get to consensus to change the mining algorithm. Perhaps, I don't know.

Plus a 51% attack will give the majority hashing power to censor transactions, not actually steal or change wallet balances. The army of full nodes will reject/not let those transactions/blocks propagate.

Bitcoin is an algorithm, not a sentient being. There is no human decision being made when a wallet connects to a node, and no human decisions being made in any other important part of the system.

I'm sort of blown away here that, for all of the talk of decentralization around Bitcoin, many don't seem to fully understand the implications of that.

There is no "owner" of Bitcoin. There is no "committee" determining Bitcoin's pathway for each transaction. There is nothing to compel nodes from taking the recommendations of a central committee. There could be a "consensus" achieved among humans in some virtual room somewhere, but that doesn't mean anything if 51%+ of the nodes adopt it.

And while the nodes couldn't actually change the contents of people's individual wallets, that content is rather meaningless if the network doesn't agree with it. In other words, nodes could simply re-write the chain and make up whatever fiction they wanted. If somebody complained and said the chain integrity was false now, they'd effectively reply, "too bad, we're the majority hashrate and what we say goes".



legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823

Theoretically possible, but practically it would be a very expensive attack on the network, which the community and the Economic Majority will get consensus to kick the attacker out of the network - merely for one double-spend. For all of that money spent on buying ASICs and all of that effort on the logistics in setting up their mining farms, it would be more viable/profitable to actually mine Bitcoin, and get paid in Bitcoin.


Again, incorrect. Bitcoin is a proof-of-work model, not a proof-of-stake model like some other cryptos out there. There is no such thing as an "Economic Majority" with Bitcoin. The only majority that means anything with Bitcoin is the work (hashrate) majority.

And presumably any entity that launched an attack like this wouldn't buy a single ASIC, they would merely take over existing systems, either by legal decree or clandestinely.


Although we could perhaps agree that it's debatable, the Economic Majority in Bitcoin are those who are willing to build things/services that provide more value to the network/community. It's hard to dispute that fact, because if no one from the community follows the miners then how are miners going to be incentivized by a distribution of coins that are going down in value?

The miners' hashing power majority are not the "all-power" in the network. I believe the UASF proved that. The miners could play a political game, but actually, all they want to be is to be incentivized for the security provided. But IF ALL of them are taken over, then the same problem, the community will probably get to consensus to change the mining algorithm. Perhaps, I don't know.

Plus a 51% attack will give the majority hashing power to censor transactions, not actually steal or change wallet balances. The army of full nodes will reject/not let those transactions/blocks propagate.
member
Activity: 182
Merit: 47

Theoretically possible, but practically it would be a very expensive attack on the network, which the community and the Economic Majority will get consensus to kick the attacker out of the network - merely for one double-spend. For all of that money spent on buying ASICs and all of that effort on the logistics in setting up their mining farms, it would be more viable/profitable to actually mine Bitcoin, and get paid in Bitcoin.


Again, incorrect. Bitcoin is a proof-of-work model, not a proof-of-stake model like some other cryptos out there. There is no such thing as an "Economic Majority" with Bitcoin. The only majority that means anything with Bitcoin is the work (hashrate) majority.

And presumably any entity that launched an attack like this wouldn't buy a single ASIC, they would merely take over existing systems, either by legal decree or clandestinely.





legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
The arbiter of what is the "true chain" is... the 51%.

He clearly emphasizes that a 51% attack, which is what an attacker's chain growing faster than the honest is, does not grant the attacker arbitrary power to change the protocol.

I find it surprising that you, and seemingly no one else that I've encountered, hold the misconception that 51% of the hashrate can dictate protocol rules to the remaining 49%.  I wonder what other misconceptions about Bitcoin I will come across in my lifetime.  

Ever wonder why people talk about the "51% attack" on Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies? Doesn't it make you wonder what they are talking about?

And I think the majority of the posters here--and most of the ones who have engaged in the conversation in a non-superficial way--acknowledge that such an attack is possible.

But it it makes you feel better to think that it's "impossible" to corrupt the Bitcoin network even for a major superpower like China, I guess you should go ahead and... feel that way...


Theoretically possible, but practically it would be a very expensive attack on the network, which the community and the Economic Majority will get consensus to kick the attacker out of the network - merely for one double-spend. For all of that money spent on buying ASICs and all of that effort on the logistics in setting up their mining farms, it would be more viable/profitable to actually mine Bitcoin, and get paid in Bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 296
Ever wonder why people talk about the "51% attack" on Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies? Doesn't it make you wonder what they are talking about?

They're talking about an entity that possesses enough hashrate to rewrite the entire blockchain or render the network inoperative by generating empty blocks. 

But it it makes you feel better to think that it's "impossible" to corrupt the Bitcoin network even for a major superpower like China, I guess you should go ahead and... feel that way...

I don't consider it "impossible" to successfully execute a 51% attack, don't misinterpret my statement.  What I find impossible within these networks is the ability to enforce your protocol rules on others without their agreement. 
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