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Topic: Could China (or similar) take control of Bitcoin? - page 5. (Read 1714 times)

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Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

Do you even understand the concept of a hard fork?  It's unrelated to hashrate.  A hard fork occurs when the consensus rules are altered, allowing a previously invalid transaction to become valid.  For example, if you validate a block subsidy of 100 BTC, you've initiated your own hard fork.  Good luck persuading others to follow you.  

And no, it's not possible for someone malicious with 51% of the hashrate to validate invalid transactions.  Miners are only capable of arranging the sequence of transactions.  If a malicious miner controls over 51%, they could opt to mine empty blocks or reverse transactions, effectively undermining the fundamental principles and game theory behind the system.  If Bitcoin were subjected to such an attack, it would cease to function.  There would be no remaining mechanism for control.  Get it now?  

Do you even understand how software works? Code can be changed.

And China would absolutely "persuade others to follow them" because they would be "persuading" a bunch of servers running in computer room. There are no people involved in the Bitcoin system, which is the whole point. You have this wrong-headed notion that Bitcoin is some kind of "community", which, while on a daily basis it is in places like here, that "community" could be overridden by an entity with more servers. Bitcoin's "consensus" is not among human beings, it's among anonymous servers. Plug in a majority of those to the network, and whoever or whatever controls those systems controls Bitcoin.

If there was a "central governing body" of Bitcoin, like you keep implying there is, then Bitcoin would not be decentralized in the way it's advertised to be. That committee could simply be compelled to do whatever governments wanted them to do.

And yes, if China (or whomever or whatever) took over Bitcoin, people would grumble a lot, but most would be so terrified of losing their holdings that they'd do anything the entity wanted. The price would surely go down, but every major holder of Bitcoin would be running advertisements 24/7 saying, "everything is okay". (So in a way, Bitcoin is a PoS model after all Smiley).





Its technically possible to control that 50% and requires huge investments to achieve, and btw in the case of China you make this sound like it's one state owned entity running the show when in reality it's several independent entities that represent this virtual control under the umbrella of being labeled China Roll Eyes


Yes, but at some level China comes down to one controlling entity, and even one man. Think of their nuclear weapons, for instance. There's not some rogue faction somewhere in China who could launch some of those.

And whomever controls over 50% of the hashrate can dictate the software in use, and/or dictate the contents of the blockchain. As the theory goes, if China wanted to wreak havoc on the world economy, or if it wanted to extract a ransom, or if it simply wanted to profit by inserting its own blocks, then... it could. They could do anything.
It's actually more complicated that you make it sound, think of it like a car..

Yes, I get that such an attack would be an extremely complicated operation, which is why it's implausible that some "small" country could pull this off. But China's GDP is $18T, their military budget is $230B, and they have over one million personnel in their army, some of whom would surely be pretty good at reading Bitcointalk to see what would need to be done Smiley. (Of course in reality they'd probably recruit a major Bitcoin mining company or maybe a few of them to go along, using bribery or extortion or whatever).

Perhaps China could decide that Satoshi's blocks should be given away to charity. Maybe they change the architecture so that it worked better in China, or conformed to their "laws" or something.
This now sounds liked a forked Bitcoin which would make it an altcoin and by the way before a fork happens a consensus has to be reached and not some dictator move to make things happen!

As I said above, if something like this were to happen to Bitcoin, the first thing an average investor would hear is, "remain calm and HODL". Nobody would want the price of their Bitcoin to go down, so they would live whatever fiction they'd need to live in order for its price to stay up. Major holders would buy TV ads and stuff.

Again, in a way, Bitcoin is a PoS model, too Smiley.



hero member
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This came up as a side discussion in another thread, and I thought it would be interesting as a top-level discussion here.

The notion is this: although taking over 50% of the Bitcoin hashrate would be a practical impossibility for any private actor or even a small country, China, as a country, has at times hosted over 50% of Bitcoin's hashrate, and it's thus plausible they could make this happen again if they wanted to.
Its technically possible to control that 50% and requires huge investments to achieve, and btw in the case of China you make this sound like it's one state owned entity running the show when in reality it's several independent entities that represent this virtual control under the umbrella of being labeled China Roll Eyes

And whomever controls over 50% of the hashrate can dictate the software in use, and/or dictate the contents of the blockchain. As the theory goes, if China wanted to wreak havoc on the world economy, or if it wanted to extract a ransom, or if it simply wanted to profit by inserting its own blocks, then... it could. They could do anything.
It's actually more complicated that you make it sound, think of it like a car.. For a car to be functional several systems have to work for it to move, say the fuel system, the oil system, suspension etc and when it comes to Bitcoin... miners are one such system that contribute to its smooth running of it and for the record are not independent but are dependable on other systems such as nodes, etcetera. So this havoc you talk of is not possible as they need to also own a huge amount of bitcoin for a coordinated attack on the network otherwise if they had miners and owned a huge chunk of BTC they would have a shot at this...

Perhaps China could decide that Satoshi's blocks should be given away to charity. Maybe they change the architecture so that it worked better in China, or conformed to their "laws" or something.
This now sounds liked a forked Bitcoin which would make it an altcoin and by the way before a fork happens a consensus has to be reached and not some dictator move to make things happen!
sr. member
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It’s definitely possible and knowing China, I know they will do everything to get it done especially if it is the way to get something they want (and they want a lot of things). I can see China doing this for political gain, how? That I am not sure but one thing’s for sure if China were to take control of 50% of bitcoin investors might lose some confidence on the coin.

Until now I still can't think and believe that China will be able to control Bitcoin, even 50% of Bitcoin investors, Bitcoin has a strong community and also loyal Diamond Hand, if China wants to control Bitcoin then they must have at least half of the number of Bitcoins in circulation. and this is impossible, how much money do they have to spend, so the percentage of China controlling bitcoin for me is only 1%.
sr. member
Activity: 364
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Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

Do you even understand the concept of a hard fork?  It's unrelated to hashrate.  A hard fork occurs when the consensus rules are altered, allowing a previously invalid transaction to become valid.  For example, if you validate a block subsidy of 100 BTC, you've initiated your own hard fork.  Good luck persuading others to follow you. 

And no, it's not possible for someone malicious with 51% of the hashrate to validate invalid transactions.  Miners are only capable of arranging the sequence of transactions.  If a malicious miner controls over 51%, they could opt to mine empty blocks or reverse transactions, effectively undermining the fundamental principles and game theory behind the system.  If Bitcoin were subjected to such an attack, it would cease to function.  There would be no remaining mechanism for control.  Get it now? 
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Klaus Schwab himself has admitted that they built China the last 30+ years.

I suggest to wake up, before it's too late... the game is rigged (West vs East, good vs bad cop). BRICs are a controlled opposition by WEF and they plan to serve SDG/Agenda 2030.


Closely cooperating with China is very different than controlling China.

I closely cooperate with my local police when I obey their traffic signs. That doesn't mean I run the police department.

Give me a detailed financial analysis of how they're going to do it.

For starters, they'd need 3 fabs like TSMC (Taiwan) to solely manufacture ASIC chips and nothing else...

Do you realize how expensive it is to create a state-of-the-art 3nm fab from scratch?

Do you realize TSMC is already chock full of wafer orders from Apple, nVidia, AMD etc?

They're not going to abandon their loyal, long-time customers just to manufacture ASIC chips and perform a hypothetical 51% attack, because even if they could (I explained you the impossible logistics), chances are they would want to mine and hodl a guaranteed income of 3.125 BTC (+ fees) every 20 minutes on average (half the hashrate, half the blocks).

Why exactly would they need to buy a single machine? They could simply appropriate the hardware already sitting within their borders. Servers in China once accounted for far more than 51% of the Bitcoin hashrate. They could do so again with a single executive order from Xi.

Regardless, what seems like a lot of money to us civilians is pennies to a major government like China. $20 trillion buys you a lot of computers (again, that's assuming a country with a 1M strong army needs to "buy" anything).

And presumably the prize would not be the mining fees, but rather a percentage of the 1.5 trillion in Bitcoin.



sr. member
Activity: 1666
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Do you believe that Blackrock, the world's largest asset manager with over $10 trillion in assets, would tolerate another country attempting to undermine their own assets like that? 


I agree with you (and others) that this would be no big deal to the world economy, but... Blackrock? Do they have a nuclear arsenal that I am unaware of? I'm pretty sure they are in no position to tell the CCP what to do...
WEF & BlackRock closely cooperate with China. Apparently it's their "role model" (yes, they'd love a technocratic dictatorship being imposed in the West):

https://blog.independent.org/2022/12/01/klaus-schwab-china/

They don't like democracy, it's too... "messy":

https://x.com/JunkScience/status/1626220779766710273

Klaus Schwab himself has admitted that they built China the last 30+ years.

I suggest to wake up, before it's too late... the game is rigged (West vs East, good vs bad cop). BRICs are a controlled opposition by WEF and they plan to serve SDG/Agenda 2030.
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

And in a hostage situation, most people would simply want their money to be safe, and they would bow to the new owner.

As others have discussed here, there's no evidence that any major government would want to do this, but they absolutely could do it.
Give me a detailed financial analysis of how they're going to do it.

For starters, they'd need 3 fabs like TSMC (Taiwan) to solely manufacture ASIC chips and nothing else...

Do you realize how expensive it is to create a state-of-the-art 3nm fab from scratch?

Do you realize TSMC is already chock full of wafer orders from Apple, nVidia, AMD etc?

They're not going to abandon their loyal, long-time customers just to manufacture ASIC chips and perform a hypothetical 51% attack, because even if they could (I explained you the impossible logistics), chances are they would want to mine and hodl a guaranteed income of 3.125 BTC (+ fees) every 20 minutes on average (half the hashrate, half the blocks).
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Yes, and that should scare the hell out of Bitcoin investors because that means he knows cryptocurrency is a way he can make money.

I wouldn't argue that Trump endorsing Bitcoin is beneficial for investors, but why should it terrify them?  He's simply another public figure attempting to capitalize on it.


LOL, because Donald Trump doesn't play the game that way.

Trump won't pump Bitcoin because Trump doesn't own Bitcoin. He would make far more money by destroying Bitcoin and forcing everybody to use his thing instead. Trump could make trillions doing this, which is far more than he could make with almost any other sort of corruption.

And with the full power of the US presidency--and his absolute control of Congress which he seems to have--he could very easily "push the button" on Bitcoin in favor of "TrumpCoin" or whatever.

Bitcoin went up 500% under President Biden. The safe bet here is to stick with the stable state, not take a chance on somebody erratic and corrupt like Trump.

Any entity that took over 51% of the hashrate controls Bitcoin.

If you possess 51% of the hashrate and utilize it for Bitcoin mining, you're not controlling Bitcoin; you're *simply* earning significant profits.  If you own 51% of the hashrate and use it to censor or reverse transactions, you're effectively undermining Bitcoin, which, in my opinion, doesn't constitute control but rather destruction.  If Bitcoin suffers from 51% attack(s), there is no longer a Bitcoin to control.  

That's not how blockchain works. The network is effectively a majority vote. There is no "center" of the network ("decentralized"). There is no "person" in charge, no committee, no non-profit group, no "community" who would "object" to this takeover. That's not how it works. If it worked that way, then Bitcoin would be effectively centralized.

Bitcoin is simply an algorithm that holds a vote on hashrate. Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

And in a hostage situation, most people would simply want their money to be safe, and they would bow to the new owner.

As others have discussed here, there's no evidence that any major government would want to do this, but they absolutely could do it.

legendary
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I don’t think that it is possible but with what you have narrated, China could cause a huge impact if they wanted. And if it happened, The technical implication of it would be FUD. People will be scared of losing their funds. To the broader cryptocurrency sector, confidence will be gone, miners may want to diversify geographically to avoid such from happening again.
I have to agree with you. Bitcoin can hardly become in control with any country even if it’s China, the most influential and the most controlling country in the world. We’ve seen how many times it failed with bitcoin, and even if there are big miners and owners of bitcoin in China, that won’t create a warranty and assurance that bitcoin will be easily controlled by them. Bitcoin is way more highly decentralized, so any country or government who wish to take full control for bitcoin might only fail but may leave a huge impact on bitcoin itself.
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China, the US, and Russia are big countries that have been providing quite a lot of hot news regarding crypto for a long time. But that doesn't mean they can control crypto easily. Because in the crypto business there are many interests, and they don't just come from 1 country. In fact, this is from various countries and includes other large countries.

However, no matter what happens and what happens in these big countries, the statements that are issued will usually have an effect on profits. but not control
hero member
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I don’t think that it is possible but with what you have narrated, China could cause a huge impact if they wanted. And if it happened, The technical implication of it would be FUD. People will be scared of losing their funds. To the broader cryptocurrency sector, confidence will be gone, miners may want to diversify geographically to avoid such from happening again.
With how China experienced being unsuccessful with bitcoin in the previous years, I guess currently is still not different. They might hold more than 51% of bitcoin but it would never guarantee that they will successfully take control of bitcoin now. Yes, they might certainly affect the price of bitcoin and that’s never new for us, but that’s only for temporary, they can’t still take full control of bitcoin no matter what.
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I don’t think that it is possible but with what you have narrated, China could cause a huge impact if they wanted. And if it happened, The technical implication of it would be FUD. People will be scared of losing their funds. To the broader cryptocurrency sector, confidence will be gone, miners may want to diversify geographically to avoid such from happening again.
hero member
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Could China (or similar) take control of Bitcoin? And my answer is Yes everyone can control of bitcoin if they had enough money and enough resources

And if you talk about a country it definitely can do that, 51% attack is doable right? And then if you want to do price manipulation you can buy as much as bitcoin and then can be act as a whale. Tho this is just my opinion guys
I guess China has all the chances to control bitcoin if they really aim to. Simply because they hold more than 50% of bitcoin and certainly act as a big whale that will take control the movement of bitcoin. Same like India and US that hold more than 50% amount of bitcoin, they can also take control bitcoin if they really want to. But we all know China is definitely more controlling more than other countries. Not just for bitcoin, but even in other valuable assets that continue to become more valuable in the future.
sr. member
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Yes, and that should scare the hell out of Bitcoin investors because that means he knows cryptocurrency is a way he can make money.

I wouldn't argue that Trump endorsing Bitcoin is beneficial for investors, but why should it terrify them?  He's simply another public figure attempting to capitalize on it.

Any entity that took over 51% of the hashrate controls Bitcoin.

If you possess 51% of the hashrate and utilize it for Bitcoin mining, you're not controlling Bitcoin; you're *simply* earning significant profits.  If you own 51% of the hashrate and use it to censor or reverse transactions, you're effectively undermining Bitcoin, which, in my opinion, doesn't constitute control but rather destruction.  If Bitcoin suffers from 51% attack(s), there is no longer a Bitcoin to control. 
sr. member
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Peace be with you!
It’s definitely possible and knowing China, I know they will do everything to get it done especially if it is the way to get something they want (and they want a lot of things). I can see China doing this for political gain, how? That I am not sure but one thing’s for sure if China were to take control of 50% of bitcoin investors might lose some confidence on the coin.
Yeah could be possible only if China is willing to spend a whole lot of money just to take control of the Bitcoin market no doubt about that as we all know how clever chinese when it comes to money making or business or almost anything. But I think if China has to do this thing they are just wasting their time for it unless they have something that will benefit their intention.

That could be possible for me but I doubt any party will take the risk of crashing Bitcoin because all of these powerful nations are currently having trade wars, tensions and military expansion so why do they bother spending more money into something that could possibly delay their country's progress right? Nowadays, countries all over the world are busy pumping their military expenditures for some reasons.
member
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(* On another thread, we've discussed the possibility of the USA doing this if Trump was elected, so he could kill Bitcoin and force everybody to use his own personal currency instead--for instance...).

Recently, he began welcoming Bitcoin donations, a shift that occurred a few years after he boasted about the dollar and dismissed Bitcoin as a scam.  It seems he has now recognized its potential.


Yes, and that should scare the hell out of Bitcoin investors because that means he knows cryptocurrency is a way he can make money.

Quote
A nation cannot control Bitcoin; its only option would be to attempt to destroy it entirely.  Bitcoin cannot be subject to China's censorship and still function as intended.  It either operates as intended, or it does not. 

Any entity that took over 51% of the hashrate controls Bitcoin. That's the way the system works. It would be enormously expensive for any individual or even a group of billionaires, but relatively straight-forward for a major country like China.

Now, if you mean "as intended" as in the original idea of Bitcoin, then it doesn't even operate that way today since most Bitcoin holders do so in a centralized way through a broker or an app. Today, in actual fact, Bitcoin is simply a meme investment instrument for almost everybody who holds it.



sr. member
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(* On another thread, we've discussed the possibility of the USA doing this if Trump was elected, so he could kill Bitcoin and force everybody to use his own personal currency instead--for instance...).

Recently, he began welcoming Bitcoin donations, a shift that occurred a few years after he boasted about the dollar and dismissed Bitcoin as a scam.  It seems he has now recognized its potential.

BTC is a decentralized currency, which China cannot control to achieve their goal like the way they use to control their fiat money to grow and develop their economy, because they have all the strategies to make their currency pump and dump but they don't have such strategy on BTC.

A nation cannot control Bitcoin; its only option would be to attempt to destroy it entirely.  Bitcoin cannot be subject to China's censorship and still function as intended.  It either operates as intended, or it does not. 
member
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Bitcoin is not a myth, it's a piece of software, and it's important that investors understand how it really works as opposed to going by hype concocted by holders of Bitcoin.

I don't think it's wrong for you to say that historically this has been the case but not all Chinese items will be controlled. Unless the inventor of BTC is also Chinese, it will be easy for China to master the technology and all the important items in BTC.

If it is possible to dominate the largest number of holdings, it is possible but controlling is certainly not.


What does Satoshi have to do with anything? He doesn't control Bitcoin in any way. I don't think you understand how Bitcoin... actually works. You really should educate yourself before you post.

And being a holder of Bitcoin doesn't make any difference either.

Again, if want to learn how Bitcoin actually works, you should read this thread from the beginning...

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Enterapp
Bitcoin is not a myth, it's a piece of software, and it's important that investors understand how it really works as opposed to going by hype concocted by holders of Bitcoin.

I don't think it's wrong for you to say that historically this has been the case but not all Chinese items will be controlled. Unless the inventor of BTC is also Chinese, it will be easy for China to master the technology and all the important items in BTC.

If it is possible to dominate the largest number of holdings, it is possible but controlling is certainly not.


member
Activity: 182
Merit: 47

[...]
BTC is a decentralized currency, which China cannot control to achieve their goal like the way they use to control their fiat money to grow and develop their economy, because they have all the strategies to make their currency pump and dump but they don't have such strategy on BTC.
[...]


As we've said several times in this thread, China could absolutely take over Bitcoin if they wanted to if they threw enough money at the problem by taking over the hash rate.

In other words, China or some other very large entity could effectively centralize control of Bitcoin if they wanted to, and then do whatever they wanted with it.

Bitcoin is not a myth, it's a piece of software, and it's important that investors understand how it really works as opposed to going by hype concocted by holders of Bitcoin.


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