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Topic: Could China (or similar) take control of Bitcoin? - page 5. (Read 1583 times)

Renampun

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Quote from: kotajikikox on May 04, 2024, 01:16:37 PM

It’s definitely possible and knowing China, I know they will do everything to get it done especially if it is the way to get something they want (and they want a lot of things). I can see China doing this for political gain, how? That I am not sure but one thing’s for sure if China were to take control of 50% of bitcoin investors might lose some confidence on the coin.

Until now I still can't think and believe that China will be able to control Bitcoin, even 50% of Bitcoin investors, Bitcoin has a strong community and also loyal Diamond Hand, if China wants to control Bitcoin then they must have at least half of the number of Bitcoins in circulation. and this is impossible, how much money do they have to spend, so the percentage of China controlling bitcoin for me is only 1%.

Medusah

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Quote from: legiteum on May 23, 2024, 06:22:19 PM

Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

Do you even understand the concept of a hard fork? It's unrelated to hashrate. A hard fork occurs when the consensus rules are altered, allowing a previously invalid transaction to become valid. For example, if you validate a block subsidy of 100 BTC, you've initiated your own hard fork. Good luck persuading others to follow you.

And no, it's not possible for someone malicious with 51% of the hashrate to validate invalid transactions. Miners are only capable of arranging the sequence of transactions. If a malicious miner controls over 51%, they could opt to mine empty blocks or reverse transactions, effectively undermining the fundamental principles and game theory behind the system. If Bitcoin were subjected to such an attack, it would cease to function. There would be no remaining mechanism for control. Get it now?

legiteum

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Quote from: cryptosize on May 23, 2024, 10:15:03 PM

Klaus Schwab himself has admitted that they built China the last 30+ years.

I suggest to wake up, before it's too late... the game is rigged (West vs East, good vs bad cop). BRICs are a controlled opposition by WEF and they plan to serve SDG/Agenda 2030.

Closely cooperating with China is very different than controlling China.

I closely cooperate with my local police when I obey their traffic signs. That doesn't mean I run the police department.

Quote from: cryptosize on May 23, 2024, 10:03:30 PM

Give me a detailed financial analysis of how they're going to do it.

For starters, they'd need 3 fabs like TSMC (Taiwan) to solely manufacture ASIC chips and nothing else...

Do you realize how expensive it is to create a state-of-the-art 3nm fab from scratch?

Do you realize TSMC is already chock full of wafer orders from Apple, nVidia, AMD etc?

They're not going to abandon their loyal, long-time customers just to manufacture ASIC chips and perform a hypothetical 51% attack, because even if they could (I explained you the impossible logistics), chances are they would want to mine and hodl a guaranteed income of 3.125 BTC (+ fees) every 20 minutes on average (half the hashrate, half the blocks).

Why exactly would they need to buy a single machine? They could simply appropriate the hardware already sitting within their borders. Servers in China once accounted for far more than 51% of the Bitcoin hashrate. They could do so again with a single executive order from Xi.

Regardless, what seems like a lot of money to us civilians is pennies to a major government like China. $20 trillion buys you a lot of computers (again, that's assuming a country with a 1M strong army needs to "buy" anything).

And presumably the prize would not be the mining fees, but rather a percentage of the 1.5 trillion in Bitcoin.

cryptosize

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Quote from: legiteum on May 05, 2024, 03:57:52 PM

Quote from: Medusah on May 05, 2024, 03:15:59 PM

Do you believe that Blackrock, the world's largest asset manager with over $10 trillion in assets, would tolerate another country attempting to undermine their own assets like that?

I agree with you (and others) that this would be no big deal to the world economy, but... Blackrock? Do they have a nuclear arsenal that I am unaware of? I'm pretty sure they are in no position to tell the CCP what to do...

WEF & BlackRock closely cooperate with China. Apparently it's their "role model" (yes, they'd love a technocratic dictatorship being imposed in the West):

https://blog.independent.org/2022/12/01/klaus-schwab-china/

They don't like democracy, it's too... "messy":

https://x.com/JunkScience/status/1626220779766710273

Klaus Schwab himself has admitted that they built China the last 30+ years.

I suggest to wake up, before it's too late... the game is rigged (West vs East, good vs bad cop). BRICs are a controlled opposition by WEF and they plan to serve SDG/Agenda 2030.

cryptosize

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Quote from: legiteum on May 23, 2024, 06:22:19 PM

Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

And in a hostage situation, most people would simply want their money to be safe, and they would bow to the new owner.

As others have discussed here, there's no evidence that any major government would want to do this, but they absolutely could do it.

legiteum

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Quote from: Medusah on May 23, 2024, 04:44:32 PM

Quote from: legiteum on May 23, 2024, 10:16:51 AM

Yes, and that should scare the hell out of Bitcoin investors because that means he knows cryptocurrency is a way he can make money.

I wouldn't argue that Trump endorsing Bitcoin is beneficial for investors, but why should it terrify them? He's simply another public figure attempting to capitalize on it.

LOL, because Donald Trump doesn't play the game that way.

Trump won't pump Bitcoin because Trump doesn't own Bitcoin. He would make far more money by destroying Bitcoin and forcing everybody to use his thing instead. Trump could make trillions doing this, which is far more than he could make with almost any other sort of corruption.

And with the full power of the US presidency--and his absolute control of Congress which he seems to have--he could very easily "push the button" on Bitcoin in favor of "TrumpCoin" or whatever.

Bitcoin went up 500% under President Biden. The safe bet here is to stick with the stable state, not take a chance on somebody erratic and corrupt like Trump.

Quote from: legiteum on May 23, 2024, 10:16:51 AM

Any entity that took over 51% of the hashrate controls Bitcoin.

If you possess 51% of the hashrate and utilize it for Bitcoin mining, you're not controlling Bitcoin; you're *simply* earning significant profits. If you own 51% of the hashrate and use it to censor or reverse transactions, you're effectively undermining Bitcoin, which, in my opinion, doesn't constitute control but rather destruction. If Bitcoin suffers from 51% attack(s), there is no longer a Bitcoin to control.

That's not how blockchain works. The network is effectively a majority vote. There is no "center" of the network ("decentralized"). There is no "person" in charge, no committee, no non-profit group, no "community" who would "object" to this takeover. That's not how it works. If it worked that way, then Bitcoin would be effectively centralized.

Bitcoin is simply an algorithm that holds a vote on hashrate. Anybody with 51% could hard-fork Bitcoin, holding everybody's blocks hostage.

And in a hostage situation, most people would simply want their money to be safe, and they would bow to the new owner.

As others have discussed here, there's no evidence that any major government would want to do this, but they absolutely could do it.

mirakal

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Quote from: oktana on May 23, 2024, 05:31:14 PM

I don’t think that it is possible but with what you have narrated, China could cause a huge impact if they wanted. And if it happened, The technical implication of it would be FUD. People will be scared of losing their funds. To the broader cryptocurrency sector, confidence will be gone, miners may want to diversify geographically to avoid such from happening again.

I have to agree with you. Bitcoin can hardly become in control with any country even if it’s China, the most influential and the most controlling country in the world. We’ve seen how many times it failed with bitcoin, and even if there are big miners and owners of bitcoin in China, that won’t create a warranty and assurance that bitcoin will be easily controlled by them. Bitcoin is way more highly decentralized, so any country or government who wish to take full control for bitcoin might only fail but may leave a huge impact on bitcoin itself.

lalabotax

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China, the US, and Russia are big countries that have been providing quite a lot of hot news regarding crypto for a long time. But that doesn't mean they can control crypto easily. Because in the crypto business there are many interests, and they don't just come from 1 country. In fact, this is from various countries and includes other large countries.

However, no matter what happens and what happens in these big countries, the statements that are issued will usually have an effect on profits. but not control

Russlenat

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Quote from: oktana on May 23, 2024, 05:31:14 PM

With how China experienced being unsuccessful with bitcoin in the previous years, I guess currently is still not different. They might hold more than 51% of bitcoin but it would never guarantee that they will successfully take control of bitcoin now. Yes, they might certainly affect the price of bitcoin and that’s never new for us, but that’s only for temporary, they can’t still take full control of bitcoin no matter what.

oktana

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Finestream

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Quote from: dansus021 on May 04, 2024, 11:23:32 PM

Could China (or similar) take control of Bitcoin? And my answer is Yes everyone can control of bitcoin if they had enough money and enough resources

And if you talk about a country it definitely can do that, 51% attack is doable right? And then if you want to do price manipulation you can buy as much as bitcoin and then can be act as a whale. Tho this is just my opinion guys

I guess China has all the chances to control bitcoin if they really aim to. Simply because they hold more than 50% of bitcoin and certainly act as a big whale that will take control the movement of bitcoin. Same like India and US that hold more than 50% amount of bitcoin, they can also take control bitcoin if they really want to. But we all know China is definitely more controlling more than other countries. Not just for bitcoin, but even in other valuable assets that continue to become more valuable in the future.

Medusah

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Quote from: legiteum on May 23, 2024, 10:16:51 AM

Yes, and that should scare the hell out of Bitcoin investors because that means he knows cryptocurrency is a way he can make money.

I wouldn't argue that Trump endorsing Bitcoin is beneficial for investors, but why should it terrify them? He's simply another public figure attempting to capitalize on it.

Quote from: legiteum on May 23, 2024, 10:16:51 AM

Any entity that took over 51% of the hashrate controls Bitcoin.

0t3p0t

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Quote from: kotajikikox on May 04, 2024, 01:16:37 PM

Yeah could be possible only if China is willing to spend a whole lot of money just to take control of the Bitcoin market no doubt about that as we all know how clever chinese when it comes to money making or business or almost anything. But I think if China has to do this thing they are just wasting their time for it unless they have something that will benefit their intention.

That could be possible for me but I doubt any party will take the risk of crashing Bitcoin because all of these powerful nations are currently having trade wars, tensions and military expansion so why do they bother spending more money into something that could possibly delay their country's progress right? Nowadays, countries all over the world are busy pumping their military expenditures for some reasons.

legiteum

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Quote from: Medusah on May 23, 2024, 04:46:14 AM

Quote from: legiteum on May 11, 2024, 01:51:16 PM

(* On another thread, we've discussed the possibility of the USA doing this if Trump was elected, so he could kill Bitcoin and force everybody to use his own personal currency instead--for instance...).

Recently, he began welcoming Bitcoin donations, a shift that occurred a few years after he boasted about the dollar and dismissed Bitcoin as a scam. It seems he has now recognized its potential.

Yes, and that should scare the hell out of Bitcoin investors because that means he knows cryptocurrency is a way he can make money.

Quote

A nation cannot control Bitcoin; its only option would be to attempt to destroy it entirely. Bitcoin cannot be subject to China's censorship and still function as intended. It either operates as intended, or it does not.

Any entity that took over 51% of the hashrate controls Bitcoin. That's the way the system works. It would be enormously expensive for any individual or even a group of billionaires, but relatively straight-forward for a major country like China.

Now, if you mean "as intended" as in the original idea of Bitcoin, then it doesn't even operate that way today since most Bitcoin holders do so in a centralized way through a broker or an app. Today, in actual fact, Bitcoin is simply a meme investment instrument for almost everybody who holds it.

Medusah

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Quote from: legiteum on May 11, 2024, 01:51:16 PM

Recently, he began welcoming Bitcoin donations, a shift that occurred a few years after he boasted about the dollar and dismissed Bitcoin as a scam. It seems he has now recognized its potential.

Quote from: Zanab247 on May 22, 2024, 07:15:00 AM

BTC is a decentralized currency, which China cannot control to achieve their goal like the way they use to control their fiat money to grow and develop their economy, because they have all the strategies to make their currency pump and dump but they don't have such strategy on BTC.

legiteum

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Quote from: Velemir Sava on May 22, 2024, 02:42:03 PM

Quote from: legiteum on May 22, 2024, 10:00:37 AM

Bitcoin is not a myth, it's a piece of software, and it's important that investors understand how it really works as opposed to going by hype concocted by holders of Bitcoin.

I don't think it's wrong for you to say that historically this has been the case but not all Chinese items will be controlled. Unless the inventor of BTC is also Chinese, it will be easy for China to master the technology and all the important items in BTC.

If it is possible to dominate the largest number of holdings, it is possible but controlling is certainly not.

What does Satoshi have to do with anything? He doesn't control Bitcoin in any way. I don't think you understand how Bitcoin... actually works. You really should educate yourself before you post.

And being a holder of Bitcoin doesn't make any difference either.

Again, if want to learn how Bitcoin actually works, you should read this thread from the beginning...

Velemir Sava

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Quote from: legiteum on May 22, 2024, 10:00:37 AM

Bitcoin is not a myth, it's a piece of software, and it's important that investors understand how it really works as opposed to going by hype concocted by holders of Bitcoin.

legiteum

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Quote from: Zanab247 on May 22, 2024, 07:15:00 AM

[...]
BTC is a decentralized currency, which China cannot control to achieve their goal like the way they use to control their fiat money to grow and develop their economy, because they have all the strategies to make their currency pump and dump but they don't have such strategy on BTC.
[...]

As we've said several times in this thread, China could absolutely take over Bitcoin if they wanted to if they threw enough money at the problem by taking over the hash rate.

In other words, China or some other very large entity could effectively centralize control of Bitcoin if they wanted to, and then do whatever they wanted with it.

Bitcoin is not a myth, it's a piece of software, and it's important that investors understand how it really works as opposed to going by hype concocted by holders of Bitcoin.

Zanab247

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Quote from: Aanuoluwatofunmi

I wonder why you're even taking China into consideration on this because they will always have the reason to adopt their own CBDC and enforces their citizens to adopt the same as well, then cant raise support for the use of cryptocurrency, because its not what is going to make them regulate the economy as they wanted, while bitcoin is even a decentralized digital currency, i don't think any of these is possible to happen in the future with them because right from the onset, we already know the way they have always been fighting against the use of crypto within their country.

China can only be part of those countries that adopted BTC for the growth of their economy which China have done before, before they discovered that it will make their fiat money useless in the country that made them to begin to create another alternative for their people to get connected to centralized currency to ignore cryptocurrency in the country.

BTC is a decentralized currency, which China cannot control to achieve their goal like the way they use to control their fiat money to grow and develop their economy, because they have all the strategies to make their currency pump and dump but they don't have such strategy on BTC.

The fight is still on in their land, but it will be difficult for China to stop everybody in their country not to buy or sell BTC secretly without the notice of the government, which many bitcoiners are still engaging themselves into cryptocurrency investment.

graphite

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Quote from: Webetcoins on May 09, 2024, 12:49:33 AM

But, what can they get after this? To earn more profit? However, I think people will stop supporting BTC once they figured out that it is now fully centralized and China can only get a bad reputation which I'm sure they don't like for it to happen.

Controlling the network wouldn't yield any profit but if your enemy uses it as a reserve currency taking control would be catastrophic to them. If NATO or USA adopted bitcoin like el salvador then China would have a reason to take down bitcoin.