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Topic: Cracking the Code - page 6. (Read 7687 times)

hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 28, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
#51
Simple, we can change the rule that include some sort of proof of stake (so this requires the attacker hold the majority of old bitcoins in circulation). The attacker will then troll the forums like Anony .... Grin

Well now you are talking about changing to a different protocol entirely. You've moved the goalposts. We were talking about Bitcoin and Bitcoin's mining ecosystem. Now you are talking about PPC Peercoin.

Proof-of-stake can in theory also be attacked:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9336/can-anyone-explain-this-vulnerability-in-ppc
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 28, 2013, 10:38:36 AM
#50
Simple, we can change the rule that include some sort of proof of stake (so this requires the attacker hold the majority of old bitcoins in circulation). The attacker will then troll the forums like Anony .... Grin

Well now you are talking about changing to a different protocol entirely. You've moved the goalposts. We were talking about Bitcoin and Bitcoin's mining ecosystem. Now you are talking about PPC Peercoin.

You assume you can update all the clients out in the world, then you are naive or insane. You have no experience whatsoever if you are claiming that. We are talking 2033 or 2040 when coin rewards diminish, so we should be talking about a billion clients and all sorts of diversity of how outfits such as Amazon have the client integrated into their website and maybe they have a vested interest to not agree and not to adopt.

See my Transactions Withholding Attack.

It is as if all your arguments boil down to "we the Bitcoin foundation run the Bitcoin top-down and we can control every node and chaos doesn't exist". Bullsh8t. That is not what happens in the real world where competition reigns and everyone is looking for an edge and an arbitrage.

Your limited hangout fantasy delusion. You tots still playing with your trucks in the sandbox in the backyard.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 28, 2013, 10:28:24 AM
#49
His motives are pretty clear.

My motives are very clear. Bitcoin is extremely evil. It is handing the internet and everything we worked so hard to protect right into the lap of the NWO, 666, cartels and all the bullsh8t that people think it is supposed to preventing.

It is antithesis of what you think it is. I am not going mince my words. I will tell you frankly. I will not stop until we replace Bitcoin with something not so vulnerable.

There was a hypothetical question in my PM which is basically am I going to put all my effort in one altcoin. And my answer is I would support and help any coin that I feel has promise in stopping the bad outcomes I fear. I might even use gains I achieved by investing in one coin to fund development on and invest in other coin. Any one who produces good stuff, I am in. I am trying to incite more quality competition. Systems that have a single point of failure are not resilient, e.g. one crypto-currency for the world.

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Knowledge_Anneals

Quote
Top-down systems are inherently fragile because they overcommit to egregious error (link to Taleb's simplest summary of the math).
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 28, 2013, 10:13:32 AM
#48

Those ideas were abandoned as unworkable in April. I will go take the domains down now. I forgot.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
November 28, 2013, 10:03:49 AM
#47
Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?

It will be rejected since it doesn't follow the protocols of the bitcoin network. The attacker has effectively forked the chain and created an altcoin at that point.

You can ignore Anonymint, he's a troll spreading FUD in order to pump his own altcoin.


Hey , what???
He does have an altcoin?
I thought he was just trolling how bitcoin will fail. Not that he has a better "idea" !
Oh yes he does and his 1400+ posts of FUD and his white papers are here to convince us that Bitcoin will fail for various reasons so we should all jump ship and work on his better ideas.  You can read all about all the fatal flaws in Bitcoin here:

http://anonymint.org, http://anonycash.org and http://anonycoin.org

Hey AnnoyMint:  Why waste your time here?  Bitcoin is doomed, right?  We are all just a bunch of total idiot Bitards supporting a totally failed experiment, right?  Go create your better idea and when we all realize that Bitcoin has failed we will all come begging you teach us the correct way to do things, right?

Sorry but I will not see your response.

hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 28, 2013, 09:57:31 AM
#46
Hey you forgot that > 50% of the mining nodes will be controlled by the attacker.

If you mean non-mining nodes, they have no protocol interaction with creation of coins. Duh!


This is absolutely 100% false.  Non mining nodes still reject invalid blocks, and would thus only download and validate valid blocks.  The 51%er would thus just do the equivilant of create a hard fork which only he can use, while the smaller sub-network would create valid blocks that user clients would accept.  So all of the non-mining lay users still wouldn't even see the invalid blocks, they'd just notice that confirmation times have slowed.

You are correct on a narrow point, but it doesn't really help you because the big picture is (more or less) as I have stated upthread.

It is very amusing how you argue that breaking the protocol by following a minority chain is somehow a resistance to an attack. You assume too many factors which you have apparently not thought out. I will explain.

You must consider that if the 50% attack is easy because of the transactions flaw I have explained which severely limits funding for the miners, then 90% attack is probably also relatively easy. For 50% you need 1x the honest miners' hash rate, for 75% you need 3x, for 80% you need 5x, for 90% you need 9x. To pick 50% as an arbitrary limit out of one's ass, isn't really analyzing the potential threat.

So if the clients follow the 10% chain and go for 1-confirmation transactions, they will see their transactions delayed by roughly 20 minutes 90% of the time, 30 minutes 81% of the time, 40 minutes 73% of the time, 50 minutes 66% of the time, 60 minutes 59% of the time, 2 hours 28% of the time, etc..

With the recommended 6-confirmations, that is 2 hours 90% of the time, 3 hours 81% of the time, 4 hours 73% of the time, 5 hours 66% of the time, 6 hours 59% of the time, 12 hours 28% of the time, etc..

So if they follow the 10% chain, Bitcoin is dead, especially with the level of volatility in the price and hour delay is not functional.

Even if you pick the arbitrary limit of 50%, for 1-confirmation that is still transactions delayed 20 minutes 50% of the time, 30 minutes 25% of the time, 40 minutes 13%, etc.. And for standard 6-confirmations that is transactions delayed 2 hours 50% of the time, 3 hours 25% of the time, 4 hours 13%, etc..



Also you are assuming that by the time coin rewards become small around 2033 or 2040, that the masses will get their non-mining node clients from the Bitcoin foundation or an honest party. Thus you assume that 100% of the clients will not collude or prefer to not have their transactions severely delayed to be point of being unusable.

You assume that violating the "longest chain rule" is harmonic in any way, which is is not, because chaos is something you don't control.

It is very likely the attacker can collude with an interested party which controls a significant number of customers access, e.g. Amazon.com

See my Transactions Withholding Attack.

So customers are more likely to say, "fix the problem Amazon". They won't give a flying f$ck about the "protocol". They will only want the damn transaction to complete timely. Even if Amazon was not colluding, they would likely make the decision to go with the 90% chain out of practical necessity.

Also the "idealistic" client nodes that you are thinking save your ass, also are going to get pissed off. They are going to demand the system doesn't take an hour to send a freakin transaction. So someone is going to offer an open source client that offers to adopt the 90% chain. And many your "idealistic" folks are going to realize that a few extra coins in the short-term is not hurting them as much as hour long delays. So they adopt the 90% chain as a stopgap solution in the near-term and look for an altcoin that isn't broken (no transactions flaw which makes the mining underfunded and thus vulnerable to 50 - 95% attack).



So with anything less than (the impossible) 100% perfect top-down control over the non-mining client nodes, the entire double-spend protection is gone, because you will have spends occuring in two chains with clients disagreeing over which chain is the valid one. As I wrote upthread:

However, if the attacker has the longest chain, then the honest miners can ignore all they want, they will still have the shorter chain.

The entire double-spend security rests on the fact that only the longest block chain is valid.

So really I don't think you've refuted my point.

What I said upthread stands as fact. The non-mining nodes are basically helpless. You have not presented a viable nor credible counter-argument.

The Bitards try to diminish the severity of the > 50% attack and claim it is no big deal and they can deal with it. They are in delusion.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
November 28, 2013, 09:37:58 AM
#45
Also, and I hope to be in topic, why do we need to try millions of hashes before finding the right one? Isn't there a way to create a mathematical way to just get the right hash on the first try?

The hashing operation basically produces a very long random number.  The entire network is looking for the first random number that has a certain number of zeros in it.

It is totally random who "wins" - that is, gets the first random number with the proper number of zeros.

You make it sound as if you can just generate a random hash with a certain number of zeros in it, but this is where the nonce value comes in isn't it?
I was trying to simplify the process in order to answer the question.  Here is the mining process in simple terms:

1) Hash the block
2) Check the hash and if the hash calculated matches the current difficulty (number of zeros) you win!  Transmit the block to the network and collect your 25 BTC.
3) ELSE increment the nonce in the block (and/or change the block in other ways) and go to 1)

This is what is being done quadrillions of time per second 24/7 in order to secure the Bitcoin system.

full member
Activity: 161
Merit: 100
November 28, 2013, 08:44:08 AM
#44
As soon you start insult people because they don't agree with you, you lose argument

Logic doesn't have an ego.

I lose the attention of the Bitards who would prefer to remain in blissful delusion. Perfect.

I see the Bitcoin Wiki is incorrect:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Quote
The attacker can't:

* Change the number of coins generated per block
* Create coins out of thin air
Can you try explain to me how they will able produce more coins?

Refer also to my immediately prior post.

Only miners can add coins with the coinbase transaction that is placed in each new mined block of the block chain.

If an attacker controls > 50% of the hashrate, the attacker will always have the longest block chain. So the attacker decides what is acceptable in the blocks.

The honest miners will reject any block chain which has more new coins in the coinbase transaction than was specified in Satoshi's whitepaper.

However, if the attacker has the longest chain, then the honest miners can ignore all they want, they will still have the shorter chain.

The entire double-spend security rests on the fact that only the longest block chain is valid.

So the only thing the honest miners and honest non-mining nodes could do would be to fork the block chain. But the attacker can then attack the forked chain. And so on and so on. There is no escape.

Checkmate. You accept the new coins.

P.S. If the honest miners try to blacklist the attacker by IP, he can send to the network from innumerable IP addresses employing a $100 botnet rental. Once you go down that road, the entire network has to be blacklisted, so lights out. Checkmate. You accept the new coins.

I get it now you won the race you have 50% bitcoin network power you produce block and inside  block is messag  'I'm with stupid' now you have block chain.  Bitcoin transaction block,Bitcoin transaction block,Bitcoin transaction block,'I'm with stuppid',Bitcoin transaction block,Frank was here,Bitcoin transaction block,Bitcoin transaction block. Longest chain won.   
hero member
Activity: 793
Merit: 1026
November 28, 2013, 08:19:32 AM
#43
Hey you forgot that > 50% of the mining nodes will be controlled by the attacker.

If you mean non-mining nodes, they have no protocol interaction with creation of coins. Duh!


This is absolutely 100% false.  Non mining nodes still reject invalid blocks, and would thus only download and validate valid blocks.  The 51%er would thus just do the equivilant of create a hard fork which only he can use, while the smaller sub-network would create valid blocks that user clients would accept.  So all of the non-mining lay users still wouldn't even see the invalid blocks, they'd just notice that confirmation times have slowed.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1128
November 28, 2013, 08:14:32 AM
#42
His motives are pretty clear.

If you want efficient distribution of money in an altcoin, do the following:

1.  Use a mining algorithm that doesn't reward specialized equipment, because that makes mining a specialized business that only rich people will do.  

2.  Abandon the idea of a fixed finite amount of eventual coin.  Instead, increase mining rewards by 5% every year.  In the very long run, you can build a very healthy economy with 5% inflation.  Value will fluctuate wildly in the adoption phase, but eventually you get 5% inflation.

3.  Fix it so mining rewards are not so concentrated.  Every block should reward hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people with small awards.  Not by making "pools" but directly.  Make mining reward "near misses."

4.  5% inflation, when finally achieved, progressively devalues any money that is just hoarded.  That includes the highly disproportionate rewards held by the very early adopters.  There's a motive to spend it, possibly to capitalize new businesses.


Now, if you do this, you will *still* get a wealthy elite.  But it'll be a wealthy elite who have to get that way by managing their money and investing wisely, rather than just buying in early.

Why are you telling them our altcoin design? Smiley You agreed to keep it secret until release, or did you forget!

Alt coin users could transfer the value in their bitcoins to a more secure alt coin. The price of bitcoin would plummet but the price of the new coin would rise and we would continue using crypto coins just like we are doing with bitcoin.

That is exactly the plan. Wink

hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
November 28, 2013, 08:08:55 AM
#41
Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?

It will be rejected since it doesn't follow the protocols of the bitcoin network. The attacker has effectively forked the chain and created an altcoin at that point.

You can ignore Anonymint, he's a troll spreading FUD in order to pump his own altcoin.


Hey , what???
He does have an altcoin?
I thought he was just trolling how bitcoin will fail. Not that he has a better "idea" !

He could be the creator of ICoin.....
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
November 28, 2013, 08:06:26 AM
#40
Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?

It will be rejected since it doesn't follow the protocols of the bitcoin network. The attacker has effectively forked the chain and created an altcoin at that point.

You can ignore Anonymint, he's a troll spreading FUD in order to pump his own altcoin.


Hey , what???
He does have an altcoin?
I thought he was just trolling how bitcoin will fail. Not that he has a better "idea" !
member
Activity: 90
Merit: 10
November 28, 2013, 08:05:27 AM
#39
What timeframe would you give for the >50%attack to occur from this point in time?

Do you believe there is an altcoin that does not have these concerns or could one be developed?

Lastly, although u seem to have a high number of ignores, I do prefer to listen to those that can backup their arguments, and although the conversations can somewhat deteriorate at times, it seems to be more so than frustration than inability to understand other points of view.

personally commend you for providing not only various probable weaknesses within the bitcoin DNA but also back that up with what seems to be competent evidence with merit.

I'm sure mr satoshi when completing his white paper did not allow for human greed and power!

When contemplating whether you are full of shit or have valid argument, one only has to understand that to be the minnow on one side of the battle is honourees in itself, win or lose, so should be given credence.

Appreciate your efforts and personally enjoy your posts, although with your obvious strength in economics and also coding, it is certainly at time hard to understand the various Swazi language, but guess we all have our s and w.

Cheers



hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
November 28, 2013, 08:03:26 AM
#38
Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?

It will be rejected since it doesn't follow the protocols of the bitcoin network. The attacker has effectively forked the chain and created an altcoin at that point.

You can ignore Anonymint, he's a troll spreading FUD in order to pump his own altcoin.

He could just be a retard..... Like the journalist in Contagious movie.... spreading FUD to make 12,000 ppl not to take vaccines.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
November 28, 2013, 08:01:32 AM
#37
As soon you start insult people because they don't agree with you, you lose argument

Logic doesn't have an ego.

I lose the attention of the Bitards who would prefer to remain in blissful delusion. Perfect.

I see the Bitcoin Wiki is incorrect:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Quote
The attacker can't:

* Change the number of coins generated per block
* Create coins out of thin air
Can you try explain to me how they will able produce more coins?

Refer also to my immediately prior post.

Only miners can add coins with the coinbase transaction that is placed in each new mined block of the block chain.

If an attacker controls > 50% of the hashrate, the attacker will always have the longest block chain. So the attacker decides what is acceptable in the blocks.

The honest miners will reject any block chain which has more new coins in the coinbase transaction than was specified in Satoshi's whitepaper.

However, if the attacker has the longest chain, then the honest miners can ignore all they want, they will still have the shorter chain.

The entire double-spend security rests on the fact that only the longest block chain is valid.

So the only thing the honest miners could do would be to fork the block chain. But the attacker can then attack the forked chain. And so on and so on. There is no escape.

Checkmate. You accept the new coins.

P.S. If you try to blacklist the attacker by IP, he can send to the network from innumerable IP addresses employing a $100 botnet rental. Once you go down that road, the entire network has to be blacklisted, so lights out. Checkmate. You accept the new coins.

Hey dumb ass a node doesnt have to be a miner to be counted as a node. Having >50% hashing power doesnt mean >50% of network node.

Welcome to my ignore list retard,

Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?

The network will reject the attackers block. If the attackers keep his hashing power, it would halt the network. However a new rule can be made in one day that nullify his attacking power.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1128
November 28, 2013, 08:00:46 AM
#36
Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?

It will be rejected since it doesn't follow the protocols of the bitcoin network. The attacker has effectively forked the chain and created an altcoin at that point.

You can ignore Anonymint, he's a troll spreading FUD in order to pump his own altcoin.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
November 28, 2013, 07:59:13 AM
#35
Also, and I hope to be in topic, why do we need to try millions of hashes before finding the right one? Isn't there a way to create a mathematical way to just get the right hash on the first try?

The hashing operation basically produces a very long random number.  The entire network is looking for the first random number that has a certain number of zeros in it.

It is totally random who "wins" - that is, gets the first random number with the proper number of zeros.

You make it sound as if you can just generate a random hash with a certain number of zeros in it, but this is where the nonce value comes in isn't it?
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
November 28, 2013, 07:58:10 AM
#34
LOL all i see this is this dumb ass keeps making 3 posts in a row. Happy all i see is "ignored"

The dumb ass has a delusional that 51% attack can create zillions coins....  Roll Eyes

While all it does is to stall/halt blockchains when the network nodes reject the attackers blocks.

Then what? ...

Simple, we can change the rule that include some sort of proof of stake (so this requires the attacker hold the majority of old bitcoins in circulation). The attacker will then troll the forums like Anony .... Grin
full member
Activity: 161
Merit: 100
November 28, 2013, 07:50:41 AM
#33
As soon you start insult people because they don't agree with you, you lose argument

Logic doesn't have an ego.

I lose the attention of the Bitards who would prefer to remain in blissful delusion. Perfect.

I see the Bitcoin Wiki is incorrect:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Quote
The attacker can't:

* Change the number of coins generated per block
* Create coins out of thin air
Can you try explain to me how they will able produce more coins?

Refer also to my immediately prior post.

Only miners can add coins with the coinbase transaction that is placed in each new mined block of the block chain.

If an attacker controls > 50% of the hashrate, the attacker will always have the longest block chain. So the attacker decides what is acceptable in the blocks.

The honest miners will reject any block chain which has more new coins in the coinbase transaction than was specified in Satoshi's whitepaper.

However, if the attacker has the longest chain, then the honest miners can ignore all they want, they will still have the shorter chain.

The entire double-spend security rests on the fact that only the longest block chain is valid.

So the only thing the honest miners could do would be to fork the block chain. But the attacker can then attack the forked chain. And so on and so on. There is no escape.

Checkmate. You accept the new coins.

P.S. If you try to blacklist the attacker by IP, he can send to the network from innumerable IP addresses employing a $100 botnet rental. Once you go down that road, the entire network has to be blacklisted, so lights out. Checkmate. You accept the new coins.

Hey dumb ass a node doesnt have to be a miner to be counted as a node. Having >50% hashing power doesnt mean >50% of network node.

Welcome to my ignore list retard,

Ok  you have control > 50%  you add 1000 bitcoin to new address and release the block you won race now how network will react to new chain whit additional 1000 bitcoin in only your chain ?
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 250
November 28, 2013, 07:48:06 AM
#32
Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.

I'm not a math genius, but my understanding is that the hash operation is a one-way calculation.  The best mathematical minds in the world have tried to find ways to reverse the calculation, but they all came up empty.  The consensus among mathematicians is that the problem can probably never be solved.  If they are all wrong, and someone comes up with a solution one day, it would break a whole lot more than just Bitcoin.  We would basically lose all Internet security!

How are you at advanced mathematics?  Enormous awards await the person who solves the problem that the best minds in the world say is impossible to solve!
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