Cracking the Code - page 8. | Bitcointalksearch.org

BurtW

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All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

Quote from: botolo86 on November 28, 2013, 01:26:21 AM

Also, and I hope to be in topic, why do we need to try millions of hashes before finding the right one? Isn't there a way to create a mathematical way to just get the right hash on the first try?

The hashing operation basically produces a very long random number. The entire network is looking for the first random number that has a certain number of zeros in it.

It is totally random who "wins" - that is, gets the first random number with the proper number of zeros.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: AnonyMint on November 28, 2013, 01:05:03 AM

Yes very worried because it means they can control the network and even modify the protocol to make it a fiat, create a zillion coins, etc.. Some argue that they can't do that because the Bitcoiners will fork to a new chain. But these Bitards forget that the masses don't care about Bitcoiner idealism. They just want to buy their pizza. See my Transactions Withholding Attack thread for more explanation on that. Once the masses are already using one fork, they won't switch. The controller could run the fork well enough that the masses are happy, even while creating more coins, etc. Exactly like fiat. We go right back where we started.

That is nonsense. It isn't that other nodes would fork it is that 100% of the nodes would simply reject a chain which violates the rules like create a zillion coins. It doesn't matter if a single miner does it or someone with 99.999999999999999999999999999999999% of the hashpower. An invalid block is invalid regardless of how much hahpower created it.

Miners simply force a consensus when the network is split on the status of transactions. All node (as in every single full node on the network regardless of if they are mining or not) independently verifies all transactions and blocks. An invalid block is simply invalid.

Your claim is simply false and shows a lack of basic understanding of the system you are trying to "fix".

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacking_all_users

botolo86

full member

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Quote from: megastacks on November 28, 2013, 12:43:22 AM

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Also, and I hope to be in topic, why do we need to try millions of hashes before finding the right one? Isn't there a way to create a mathematical way to just get the right hash on the first try?

btcprice

sr. member

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Quote from: AnonyMint on November 28, 2013, 01:05:03 AM

Quote from: megastacks on November 28, 2013, 12:57:35 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on November 28, 2013, 12:51:11 AM

Because mathematically you need to know the prior block hash before you can compute the next one.

And unless you have > 50% of the total network hash rate, then you can't permanently compute the next hash faster than the network can.

Note you can with declining probability P (< 1) compute the next hash faster than the network with less than 50% of the hash rate. Since probability is multiplicative, then doing this for two consecutive blocks is P x P, e.g. 0.1 x 0.1 = 0.01 so from 1 in 10 for one block rises to 1 in 100 chance for two blocks. Ditto for N consecutive blocks, e.g. for four blocks then 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 = 1 in 10,000 chance.

Anony, thanks for the explanation.

So if someone has over 50% of the total network hash rate is that something to be concerned about? Do you think it will ever happen?

My pleasure.

Yes very worried because it means they can control the network and even modify the protocol to make it a fiat, create a zillion coins, etc.. Some argue that they can't do that because the Bitcoiners will fork to a new chain. But these Bitards forget that the masses don't care about Bitcoiner idealism. They just want to buy their pizza. See my Transactions Withholding Attack thread for more explanation on that. Once the masses are already using one fork, they won't switch. The controller could run the fork well enough that the masses are happy, even while creating more coins, etc. Exactly like fiat. We go right back where we started.

In my (opinionated) analysis it is very likely to happen (when coin rewards diminish near to 0) with Bitcoin, because of a flaw in the design (transaction fees should be zero instead).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745513

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745458

Or another attack which gives up control of the network. Dig, dig, dig into the rabbit hole:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3744842

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745278

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745161

Alt coin users could transfer the value in their bitcoins to a more secure alt coin. The price of bitcoin would plummet but the price of the new coin would rise and we would continue using crypto coins just like we are doing with bitcoin.

Palmdetroit

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Activity: 910

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PHS 50% PoS - Stop mining start minting

Quote from: megastacks on November 28, 2013, 12:43:22 AM

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.

For layperson , average joe, pleeb just use

Cause Obama

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

Quote from: megastacks on November 28, 2013, 12:57:35 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on November 28, 2013, 12:51:11 AM

Because mathematically you need to know the prior block hash before you can compute the next one.

And unless you have > 50% of the total network hash rate, then you can't permanently compute the next hash faster than the network can.

Note you can with declining probability P (< 1) compute the next hash faster than the network with less than 50% of the hash rate. Since probability is multiplicative, then doing this for two consecutive blocks is P x P, e.g. 0.1 x 0.1 = 0.01 so from 1 in 10 for one block rises to 1 in 100 chance for two blocks. Ditto for N consecutive blocks, e.g. for four blocks then 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 = 1 in 10,000 chance.

Anony, thanks for the explanation.

So if someone has over 50% of the total network hash rate is that something to be concerned about? Do you think it will ever happen?

My pleasure.

Yes very worried because it means they can control the network and even modify the protocol to make it a fiat, create a zillion coins, etc.. Some argue that they can't do that because the Bitcoiners will fork to a new chain. But these Bitards forget that the masses don't care about Bitcoiner idealism. They just want to buy their pizza. See my Transactions Withholding Attack thread for more explanation on that. Once the masses are already using one fork, they won't switch. The controller could run the fork well enough that the masses are happy, even while creating more coins, etc. Exactly like fiat. We go right back where we started.

In my (opinionated) analysis it is very likely to happen (when coin rewards diminish near to 0) with Bitcoin, because of a flaw in the design (transaction fees should be zero instead).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745513

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745458

Or another attack which gives up control of the network. Dig, dig, dig into the rabbit hole:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3744842

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745278

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3745161

megastacks

newbie

Activity: 14

Merit: 0

Quote from: AnonyMint on November 28, 2013, 12:51:11 AM

Because mathematically you need to know the prior block hash before you can compute the next one.

And unless you have > 50% of the total network hash rate, then you can't permanently compute the next hash faster than the network can.

Note you can with declining probability P (< 1) compute the next hash faster than the network with less than 50% of the hash rate. Since probability is multiplicative, then doing this for two consecutive blocks is P x P, e.g. 0.1 x 0.1 = 0.01 so from 1 in 10 for one block rises to 1 in 100 chance for two blocks. Ditto for N consecutive blocks, e.g. for four blocks then 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 = 1 in 10,000 chance.

Anony, thanks for the explanation.

So if someone has over 50% of the total network hash rate is that something to be concerned about? Do you think it will ever happen?

AnonyMint

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 521

Because mathematically you need to know the prior block hash before you can compute the next one.

And unless you have > 50% of the total network hash rate, then you can't permanently compute the next hash faster than the network can.

Note you can with declining probability P (< 1) compute the next hash faster than the network with less than 50% of the hash rate. Since probability is multiplicative, then doing this for two consecutive blocks is (this is not exactly correct but for simple exposition) P x P, e.g. 0.1 x 0.1 = 0.01 so from 1 in 10 for one block rises to 1 in 100 chance for two blocks. Ditto for N consecutive blocks, e.g. for four blocks then 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.1 = 1 in 10,000 chance.

PenAndPaper

sr. member

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Quote from: megastacks on November 28, 2013, 12:43:22 AM

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.

Because that "key" is different its time.

MRKLYE

legendary

Activity: 1358

Merit: 1003

Designer - Developer

Quote from: megastacks on November 28, 2013, 12:43:22 AM

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.

Algorithm prevents such shit from happening.

megastacks

newbie

Activity: 14

Merit: 0

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.

Topic: Cracking the Code - page 8. (Read 7687 times)