Topic: Criminal Lawsuit against BFL in Germany [in progress] (Read 7074 times)

that 24hours must be equivalent to 12months or 1year...

Let me get this straight! Are you telling me that once those 300 units are made during the day, they're put on racks to be burned in for 24 hours prior to being boxed up, then shipped out?

What the fuck am I missing here?

I can't image the space this would take up that BFL doesn't have, let alone the amount of energy it'll take to simply fire up them miners. BTW, how many can be attached to a single computer at one time? Surely, we're not talkin' 'bout 300 PCs are we?

Not to mention they're just doing burn-ins for 24 hours on each unit anyway.

The picture of their burn testing rack looks like it might handle a hundreds Jalapenos or a couple of dozen Singles. I don't think that's going to change the world.

A large manufacturer mining / "burn testing" for 2 weeks does drive up the difficulty, which makes the unit less profitable. There won't be much problems if you did "burn testing" on testnet but of course nobody will do burn testing if it's on testnet.

This pizza has been adultery!

Still post stalking me I see!

I promised to keep my hands off of you!  You should keep your hands off my pizza! :p

I have altered your pizza. Pray I do not alter it further.

I agree they they shouldn't eat your pizza or any slice of it first, and this is where the analogy does not match 100%.  By eating the pizza, they have altered your pizza.  By mining with your machine, they really haven't altered it that much.  Yeah, yeah, they put a little bit of wear and tear on it, but in the long run, not really that much.  I sell some little asic usb erupters on the side, and I test every single one of them for 24 hours before sending b/c I don't wanna deal with sending bad ones out and having returns.  Does this mean I'm eating some of my customer's pizza?  It's a fine line for sure, but I personally don't think I'm doing anything wrong.

my single was not even tested, I know very well how new electronics smells when fired first time. That was just new.
Some people searching for shit everywhere, if they not able to find any they will produce some. Culture of BS.

Did you know that Josh hosts customer rigs, and had a pool hosted as well (eligus)?  It's not BFL mining on customer rigs - it's customer rigs being hosted at a given pool.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:MiniRig+SC+and+Single+SC+Hosting

i never thought i would defend bfl, but i think you got confused there.

wasn't that big node on this network globe only showing the pool(eligius?) operated in that area?

still doesn't rule out the possibility of costumer asics running there too, but it is no real proof.

there were a few threads...

I do not have them bookmarked... so yeah I cannot just give the link...

but from inside my mind...

here it goes..
========================================================
BFL
========================================================
there was a thread talking about BFL mining with customers miner...

showing a heat map around the globe - texas... showing it was the most/heavily (dnt really remember the exact words).. but showing that in BFL's office/hq has the highest ghz/TH in terms of mining...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...


========================================================
AVALON
========================================================
there was a thread in one of avalon's customer...

the person got his miner.. and there was a setting in the miner... it mined a "FEW HUNDRED" bitcoins... and that wallet address was tracked and found to have a few more...

if you burn test a miner it should only generate few bitcoins... like 1 or 10 or atleast less than 20 bitcoins? NOT 100+ bitcoins...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...

Care to share said proof?  I remember seeing rather blatant proof of Avalon doing it (dusty fans, etc), but not BFL, at least beyond testing prototypes and doing the 24 hr burn-in.

at first I would have agreed on your point... however.. I remember those thread here about them "MINING" with customers miners...
(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

and "THEM"... telling something else... like they have some problem in this area, in that area, and etc... while still mining and delaying the delivery...

now that changes the whole "pre-order is not the problem"....

in short...

they took the customers money... build a product... and "burn test" that product and somewhere in the road that burntest  btc goes into their wallet... so nope... that's no longer a pre-order scheme...

if you pre-order a pizza:
company takes your money via phone or internet...
they make a pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
deliver the pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
end of transaction...

Question: Should the company that makes the pizza takes/eats a slice of a pizza before they deliver it?
Answer: "NO! at the time the product was done... it should already be considered CUSTOMERS PROPERTY! SO DON'T TOUCH!"

Pre orders are not the problem.  I do a pre order every day at the deli counter for my sandwich.  I pay the cashier and about 5-15 minutes later, I get my sandwich.  Anytime you order a Pizza online and pay for it before you go pick it up or it gets delivered is a pre-order.  I have a pre-order out at gamestop for GTA V.  Many of my friends have Preorders for the PS4 (was going to say xbox one but then I realized no one preordered the xbox one... :p )

The problem is a pre-order that fails to meet the date of delivery by more than a small margin of error.  If my sandwich take an extra 5 minutes, I might be grumpy, but I'm not mad.  But with the ASIC pre orders, the problem is both not being able to meet their own timelines and poor customer service.  Back to the sandwich analogy, we're at the equivalent of me waiting about 3 hours for my sandwich that was promised in 15 minutes now.  But even that's not the problem.  If the cashier is honest with me and says, "hey, our oven broke and we're not going to get your order out for an hour, would you like a refund?" I would either decide that the sandwich was worth waiting for, or take my money and go elsewhere.

The problem is no pre-orders, it's the fact that you have a bunch of people with no business or interpersonal skills trying to sell a product that has had some glitches, and no one has enough PR savvy to diffuse the situation.

Yeah, it seems that some people here either need a basic geography or basic law lesson.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if this never gets past the filing stage because the German courts rule that they don't have jurisdiction.  In order for any entity to be charged criminally, it has to be subject to the criminal statutes of the jurisdiction the court presides over.  Filing criminal charges in Germany for something that happened in the US would get thrown out very quickly.

OP, think of it this way.  You are in Germany, and decide to steal a car.  Here in the US, the DA of NY decides to file Grand Theft Auto charges against you in the NY District Court.  Does this make any sense to you?

I still don't quite understand what your complaint is.

If you don't like BFL, don't order from them.  If you don't like Avalon, don't order from them.  If you don't like pre-orders, don't pre-order anything.

Your steps 1-4 are not at all obvious, and simply conjecture based upon the little evidence you can see from looking at the company as an outsider.  There is no proof of your accusations.

What has this got to do with the OP?

You realize it's a myth that you can make more money per hour mining with an ASIC than you can selling it?

If BFL ship 100 Jalapenos a day, that's around 300BTC worth, try mining 300BTC with 100 Jalapenos, it will take weeks, it's much more profitable to keep selling the units.

seriously?

I was a customer of bfl as well... I have 6 fpga... so my conscience of bashing them is clean...

I did not do "2012" pre-order any asics for some trust reason... but these pre-orders really need to stop...

They are trying to manipulate here... it is very obvious that they are the ones getting rich here...

they get to do whatever they wants...

1) GET MONEY from preorders...

2) build miners...

3) Mine with them first until people gets mad and really want their orders...

4 ) deliver a few orders (so consumers gets some hype and buys MORE PRE-ORDERS)

5 ) Repeat step 1-4



I mean avalon did the right thing in their "FIRST BATCH"... now they're trying to do the same as what is BFL is doing...

One thing i really want to happen is.. have at least 5 companies manufacturing miners...

that way they'll have to compete to get the consumers business.... and not abuse their capability to build these miners...