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Topic: DagCoin: a cryptocurrency without blocks - page 9. (Read 70872 times)

full member
Activity: 223
Merit: 111
DagCoin: a cryptocurrency without blocks

Back in 2012 I thought a lot on a new cryptocurrency that could merge the concepts of transaction and block. Each transaction would carry a proof-of-work and reference one or more previous transactions. The resulting authenticated data structure would be a Direct Acyclic Graph (DAG) of transactions where each transaction “confirms” one or more previous transactions. The confirmation security of a transaction would be measured in accumulated amount of proof-of-work referencing (or confirming) the transaction. This structure is well suited for a cryptocurrency without subsidy (such as a side-chain). On the past years I’ve read a couple of similar proposals on bitcointalk (although I cannot find the references now). When the GHOST paper was published, I perceived it as a reinforcement of my idea that a tree could give more security than a chain in case of high rate of transactions.

My open problems…

The problem that I could not solve in 2012 is how to limit the maximum cut of the generated DAG or, in other words, how to prevent all new transactions from referencing the same set of parent transactions. How to create the incentive to “move forward”? The DAG must not increase in “width”, and it should look more like a DAG-chain. Also one must prevent users from choosing old transactions to extend the DAG. I tried several monetary incentive structures to force users to choose newer transactions, but with no result. To know the last “ledger state” there must be a way to consolidate branches. Merging branches should be good, but not too good such that everyone starts merging the same branches over and over. The problem of spam was also less important, as no transaction would be able to get a “free ride” in a block, as each transaction carries PoW. Ultimately the owners of a computer that is being part of a spamming botnet would realize their computers have been hijacked based on the amount of CPU consumed. For instance, if a transaction requires a proof-of-work that takes 1 second in a standard PC, and each transaction is 400 bytes in size, then a botnet consisting in 10K computers may create transaction reaching 3 Mbytes/second. This high network bandwidth usage itself is not a problem, since it can disrupt the network only as long as the attack is active. However, there must be a way to prevent the DAG-chain from growing at that pace. It turns out that the election of an optimal data structure allows the DAG-chain to be compressed, but it requires us to change how we think about double-spends, and how we conceive the “ledger state”.

A Radical Change

The leap of faith required to find an out-of-the-box solution is to think about double-spends not as a boolean attribute, but as a probabilistic attribute, based on comparing the confirmation work on competing transactions. An the security of a transaction, as the confirmation work compared to the the work expected that an adversary may use. Also it requires to forget about the concept of a “global ledger state”. In Bitcoin there is a global ledger state. Chain reorganizations can always rollback the state, but the state is globally consistent. There is a certain probability of the last block rolling back, but the probability is the same for every transaction in that block. In this proposal, the ledger state is just the overlap of all possible transactions, each with its own confirmation probability, and there is no consistent global state.

Design Premise: “The cryptocurrency network benefits from creating a DAG growing as “thin” as possible.

In other words, having the average maximal cut as low as possible. It seems that referencing many previous transactions (high out degree) can make the DAG thinner only if the following transactions reference the transaction with high out degree, but are themselves of low out degree. So we want high out degree some times, but low out degree another times.

I designed a DAG that tries to fulfill that premise, and an associated incentive structure such that:

 There is a benefit for users to reference as many previous transactions as possible
 Referencing many previous transactions is incentivized only when there are many previous transactions unreferenced.
 There is no competition between users to reference a previous transaction.

Here is the paper draft  –> DagCoin-v4 https://bitslog.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/dagcoin-v41.pdf

This same article can be found in my blog: https://bitslog.wordpress.com/2015/09/11/dagcoin/


to be honest, i really like this but won't that make de centralized concept little more off the edge ?
full member
Activity: 504
Merit: 105
I believe that time will eventually show that pre-sales simply don't work to do anything but temporarily enrich the launchers.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
There is no actual 'time' in any cryptocurrency, and any things you might find in blocks called 'time stamps' are not to be trusted because in a p2p environment, nodes lie. This is what satoshi solved in his paper - a time stamping algorithm called POW.

Byteball does not use timestamps at all.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
There is no actual 'time' in any cryptocurrency, and any things you might find in blocks called 'time stamps' are not to be trusted because in a p2p environment, nodes lie. This is what satoshi solved in his paper - a time stamping algorithm called POW.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
What is the present list of DAG based ledgers? I could find tangle/iota, byteball and this. I'd like to research more into this, so any additional references would be helpful.

I'm pretty sure there is only Byteball and Iota at the moment, well, and this project. Which is really interesting, because if this was anything like traditional blockchain projects, you'd have approximately a billion clones by now, including IotaClassic, ByteballClassic, Bitball, My and so on.
member
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
What is the present list of DAG based ledgers? I could find tangle/iota, byteball and this. I'd like to research more into this, so any additional references would be helpful.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
is there a place to discuss byteball specifically?  I have a byteball wallet but i don't know who these trusted witenesses are supposed to be etc

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/obyte-totally-new-consensus-algorithm-private-untraceable-payments-1608859
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
is there a place to discuss byteball specifically?  I have a byteball wallet but i don't know who these trusted witenesses are supposed to be etc
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Byteball is decentralized

Right now supermajority of the witnesses is controlled by a single person, so it's not decentralized. Also no proof of Byteball belonging to DAG-coins family was presented, bold claims of a BTT member with "Activity: 140" can't be accept as proofs. The resume is so obvious I don't even need to post it.
lol nice try at derailing again.

Right now iota is not on any exchanges, since you are the consensus algorithm, do you have your notebook and pen ready to scribble which people you are scamming? You keep track of their balances and post it with the next "milestone". How many btc have you stolen due to people not showing up to "claim" the iotatokens they bought from you and thought they owned?

legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
Byteball is decentralized

Right now supermajority of the witnesses is controlled by a single person, so it's not decentralized. Also no proof of Byteball belonging to DAG-coins family was presented, bold claims of a BTT member with "Activity: 140" can't be accept as proofs. The resume is so obvious I don't even need to post it.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250

Byteball is centralized in 12 servers so it's extremely hard to take it seriously as more than an interesting experiment to see how it's version of DAG works out.
Indeed, its major weakness, yet interesting concept. It is not fully centralized to 12 witnesses, as any full node can collect headers-fees, it is only witnesses who collect payload fees. Byteball is decentralized, but not trust-less. It is also possible to run a witness as tor hidden service or even behind i2p.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Don't understand all the mud slinging crap between SatoNatomato and Cfb.

I caught and exposed SatoNatomato on outright lies, so the root of his hatred is easily understandable.
Laughable, you are only butthurt because I asked uncomfortable questions in your IOTA-thread, then you banned me and started following me around to try to stop me from spreading truth what IOTA actually is, from the perspective of someone who actually works with IoT.

Also, your trolling and Byteball FUD is terrible and has been "exposed" by others as well.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
Don't understand all the mud slinging crap between SatoNatomato and Cfb.

I caught and exposed SatoNatomato on outright lies, so the root of his hatred is easily understandable.
sr. member
Activity: 686
Merit: 320
Don't understand all the mud slinging crap between SatoNatomato and Cfb. The two of you should just go get a room or something.

Byteball is centralized in 12 servers so it's extremely hard to take it seriously as more than an interesting experiment to see how it's version of DAG works out. If it ever actually got to the point someone could make big time money from it, and being the way people are, they could easily co-opt enough of those servers to take control.

IOTA. Already controversy over it's initial distribution and I hear CfB had shopped around for sock puppets to help out with that. Haven't even got to the point of looking into those allegations yet but that's what I already hear. Plus he seems more interested in FUDing Byteball than talking about IOTA in his own thread. I haven't even gone back there yet to continue to try and get some answers to my questions as no one seems interested in discussing anything technical about it. IOTA starts as centralized and only stops IF the hash power gets high enough. If it grows to the point where it's not really feasible for most people to run a full node, it ends up gravitating towards a small number of people running nodes and/or "pools" of people running some form of distributed nodes. i.e. it moves towards the current bitcoin mining situation (centralization).

Even with my current limited knowledge of both, I see flaws in both and all the FUDing is just a huge distraction to trying to discuss any of it.
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
I look forward to seeing what DagCoin has to offer the community. You seem to be introducing some new concepts to the community. We appreciate your service Smiley Keep growing and maybe one day I'll even buy a DagCoin.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
^
Still unsure if you picked the right library?
Boss already nagging?
Fear of losing your internship?
Let me see, it is May, the fifth month, of 2017. Can a person trade iotatokens on exchanges and is the consensus of Iota decided by its consensus-algorithm and not "milestone" databases posted by its developers?

Byteball is on bittrex, changelly, bitsquare to name a few.

I am truly sorry you have invested too much into Iotatoken to not be willing to see/comprehend the inherent incompatibility and oyxmoron of "proof-of-work" designed for devices, devices which are optimized to do as little work as possible.

Iota is as spectacular and big as its promises and failure to deliver anything of value.


I translate your answer to:
yes
yes
yes
I translate your messages to, "butthurt", and enviousness, do you even have a job?
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
is the consensus of Iota decided by its consensus-algorithm and not "milestone" databases posted by its developers?

Milestones are used as a countermeasure against 34% attack while hashpower backing IOTA is not large enough. Also, last time I checked Byteball description that coin wasn't decentralized, so it's unclear why Byteball is mentioned in this thread at all.
LOL.

Iota as designed will never be secure, no matter how much hashpower you throw at it, will never be done with milestones and "claim" your tokens to actually own them, again.

Besides, proof-of-work, hashpower, on internet-of-things devices. Right. I mean, really, congratulations CfB you are master scammer who fooled many many naive people who know nothing of IoT.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
^
Still unsure if you picked the right library?
Boss already nagging?
Fear of losing your internship?
Let me see, it is May, the fifth month, of 2017. Can a person trade iotatokens on exchanges and is the consensus of Iota decided by its consensus-algorithm and not "milestone" databases posted by its developers?

Byteball is on bittrex, changelly, bitsquare to name a few.

I am truly sorry you have invested too much into Iotatoken to not be willing to see/comprehend the inherent incompatibility and oyxmoron of "proof-of-work" designed for devices, devices which are optimized to do as little work as possible.

Iota is as spectacular and big as its promises and failure to deliver anything of value.


I translate your answer to:
yes
yes
yes
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
is the consensus of Iota decided by its consensus-algorithm and not "milestone" databases posted by its developers?

Milestones are used as a countermeasure against 34% attack while hashpower backing IOTA is not large enough. Also, last time I checked Byteball description that coin wasn't decentralized, so it's unclear why Byteball is mentioned in this thread at all.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
^
Still unsure if you picked the right library?
Boss already nagging?
Fear of losing your internship?
Let me see, it is May, the fifth month, of 2017. Can a person trade iotatokens on exchanges and is the consensus of Iota decided by its consensus-algorithm and not "milestone" databases posted by its developers?

Byteball is on bittrex, changelly, bitsquare to name a few.

I am truly sorry you have invested too much into Iotatoken to not be willing to see/comprehend the inherent incompatibility and oyxmoron of "proof-of-work" designed for devices, devices which are optimized to do as little work as possible.

Iota is as spectacular and big as its promises and failure to deliver anything of value.
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