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Topic: [DATA]Exchanges: their way of using a fractional-reserve and generate inflation - page 7. (Read 17720 times)

legendary
Activity: 3094
Merit: 2657

I am not that deep into blockchain analysis as you are, but some of the exchanges adresses are known. I think it could be quite easy to estimate wideley they fluctuate in terms of coins. I assume they have a stock which is barely moving and even if they care, they could use at least half of this to do FRB. Do you have further information?


do you know where i can get an updated database of exchanges addresses ?
legendary
Activity: 3094
Merit: 2657
very insightful post - thank you

I assume we all know how fishy most of the exchanges are working but I never thought directly about that possibility.


Thank.  Spread the word about this problem, and remember the golden rule:

DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK



your advice, I guess at this point of time is the only thing we can do. do you have any possbilities to estimate at which rate they are probably doing this.

I am not that deep into blockchain analysis as you are, but some of the exchanges adresses are known. I think it could be quite easy to estimate wideley they fluctuate in terms of coins. I assume they have a stock which is barely moving and even if they care, they could use at least half of this to do FRB. Do you have further information?


I am making some work about this.


Edit: this obviously holds true for every off-chain transaction type, whether it be changetip, satoshi dice or every other possibility doesn't it?


Sure. every off-chain transaction expose to this problem. But BTC exchanges have on their wallets a lot of BTC....
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
very insightful post - thank you

I assume we all know how fishy most of the exchanges are working but I never thought directly about that possibility.

your advice, I guess at this point of time is the only thing we can do. do you have any possbilities to estimate at which rate they are probably doing this.

I am not that deep into blockchain analysis as you are, but some of the exchanges adresses are known. I think it could be quite easy to estimate wideley they fluctuate in terms of coins. I assume they have a stock which is barely moving and even if they care, they could use at least half of this to do FRB. Do you have further information?


Edit: this obviously holds true for every off-chain transaction type, whether it be changetip, satoshi dice or every other possibility doesn't it?
legendary
Activity: 3094
Merit: 2657

Yes, but that's very different from what the banks are doing.
It's certainly a possibility that an exchange uses, say 50%, of the BTC it has, to invest around at its own risk, doing things like selling those BTC and invest the cash into stocks, but that's no money creation. It's more like if I lend you my car to do your shopping, you use it to go racing.


technically speaking, the BTC exchange don't have the rule of central bank (real money creation, namely BTC mining), but the rule of commercial bank.
But they can operate EXACTLY as  a commercial bank (commercial bank are 99% of banks)

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking:

Money creation process
Main article: Money creation

There are two types of money in a fractional-reserve banking system operating with a central bank:[15][16][17]

    Central bank money: money created or adopted by the central bank regardless of its form –
    precious metals, commodity certificates, banknotes, coins, electronic money loaned to commercial banks,
    or anything else the central bank chooses as its form of money
 
    Commercial bank money: demand deposits in the commercial banking system;
    sometimes referred to as "chequebook money"

When a deposit of central bank money is made at a commercial bank, the central bank money
is removed from circulation and added to the commercial banks' reserves
(it is no longer counted as part of M1 money supply). Simultaneously,
an equal amount of new commercial bank money is created in the form of bank deposits.
When a loan is made by the commercial bank (which keeps only a fraction of the central bank money as reserves),
using the central bank money from the commercial bank's reserves, the m1 money supply expands by the size of
the loan.[2] This process is called "deposit multiplication".

legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
There's a huge difference with the banking sector and BTC exchange companies and I'm not sure you've seen it.

Today's banks actually have the power to create money. They keep a 2% fractional reserve as the law requires in the US, and then they multiply from that, lending money which they do not have and do not even actually exist, but you can't do that with BTC. The amount of BTC deposited at an exchange is fixed, and cannot be multiplied. BTC cannot be created except by miners, and double spend is not allowed.

I'm not saying it's safe to keep your BTC at an exchange, but it is actually much less risky than depositing cash at a bank.



In the first post I explain in detail how they can do it.

Yes, but that's very different from what the banks are doing.
It's certainly a possibility that an exchange uses, say 50%, of the BTC it has, to invest around at its own risk, doing things like selling those BTC and invest the cash into stocks, but that's no money creation. It's more like if I lend you my car to do your shopping, you use it to go racing.
legendary
Activity: 3094
Merit: 2657
A very useful post indeed!

Thank.  Spread the word about this problem, and remember the golden rule:

DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
A very useful post indeed!
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
There's a huge difference with the banking sector and BTC exchange companies and I'm not sure you've seen it.

Today's banks actually have the power to create money. They keep a 2% fractional reserve as the law requires in the US, and then they multiply from that, lending money which they do not have and do not even actually exist, but you can't do that with BTC. The amount of BTC deposited at an exchange is fixed, and cannot be multiplied. BTC cannot be created except by miners, and double spend is not allowed.

I'm not saying it's safe to keep your BTC at an exchange, but it is actually much less risky than depositing cash at a bank.



I should have read it carefully. The bank example is just an example.
we wrote that what is actually happening in the banking system might as well happen in the BTC world with similar mechanisms.
That's it.

when you say
Quote
The amount of BTC deposited at an exchange is fixed, and cannot be multiplied. BTC cannot be created except by miners, and double spend is not allowed.

that's what we're questioning: we're exploring whether that possibility is real or not.
legendary
Activity: 3094
Merit: 2657
There's a huge difference with the banking sector and BTC exchange companies and I'm not sure you've seen it.

Today's banks actually have the power to create money. They keep a 2% fractional reserve as the law requires in the US, and then they multiply from that, lending money which they do not have and do not even actually exist, but you can't do that with BTC. The amount of BTC deposited at an exchange is fixed, and cannot be multiplied. BTC cannot be created except by miners, and double spend is not allowed.

I'm not saying it's safe to keep your BTC at an exchange, but it is actually much less risky than depositing cash at a bank.



In the first post I explain in detail how they can do it.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
There's a huge difference with the banking sector and BTC exchange companies and I'm not sure you've seen it.

Today's banks actually have the power to create money. They keep a 2% fractional reserve as the law requires in the US, and then they multiply from that, lending money which they do not have and do not even actually exist, but you can't do that with BTC. The amount of BTC deposited at an exchange is fixed, and cannot be multiplied. BTC cannot be created except by miners, and double spend is not allowed.

I'm not saying it's safe to keep your BTC at an exchange, but it is actually much less risky than depositing cash at a bank.

legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
Wahhay, 1050 million bitcoins... wait, what?


where did you get this number?

Fifty to one fractional reserves in bitcoin. We might wake up when we've more than twenty one million coins being traded on the exchanges though... maybe.

Ok but that's hypothetical. We were thinking of hypothesis.
It might actually be worse than that
 Cool
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
Wahhay, 1050 million bitcoins... wait, what?


where did you get this number?
newbie
Activity: 57
Merit: 0
Decentralized exchanges are the solution. Rest are anyway direct transplants from fiat. So they carry the fiat baggage. Bitsquare is there, Coinffeine and maybe some more coming up. But they are all listing fiat to btc pairs only. Way to go I guess.

Hi, I'm Marc from Bitsquare. Implementation of other cryptocurrencies than btc is a small hurdle after v1.0 and definitely on our minds.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
DO NOT HOLD YOUR BTC ON THIRD PARTY EXCHANGES – BE YOUR OWN BANK :- really it is an golden rule.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Decentralized exchanges are the solution. Rest are anyway direct transplants from fiat. So they carry the fiat baggage. Bitsquare is there, Coinffeine and maybe some more coming up. But they are all listing fiat to btc pairs only. Way to go I guess.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
A: AS we said this is a real problem indeed which is giving already its inflation related problems. But, I’m sorry, right now we don’t know any technical solutions for it.
The only thing you can do is helping proposing/creating a technical solution to compel exchanges to be more transparent and asking for the creation of p2p exchanges.
http://otblog.net/2014/05/voting-pools-stop-plague-bitcoin-heists-thefts-hacks-scams-losses/

I didn't know about that! Thanks

Here to learn Wink
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
well, then use kraken or other exchanges with provable reserves.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
A: AS we said this is a real problem indeed which is giving already its inflation related problems. But, I’m sorry, right now we don’t know any technical solutions for it.
The only thing you can do is helping proposing/creating a technical solution to compel exchanges to be more transparent and asking for the creation of p2p exchanges.
http://otblog.net/2014/05/voting-pools-stop-plague-bitcoin-heists-thefts-hacks-scams-losses/
legendary
Activity: 3094
Merit: 2657
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