Topic: Debunking the "Bitcoin is an environmental disaster" argument. - page 4. (Read 5223 times)

Once PoW mining is banned , coming soon.
BlackHatCoiner will do exactly what he doing now, pretending it did not happen.

But for people that live in this reality,  
well any coin unable to transact is worth zero.
In BTC and Game of Thrones, being a hodler does not end well.  

Let me repeat this, since some people can't grasp it's meaning.
The White House Office of Science and Technology is recommending to the US President that PoW be Eliminated from the US.
And 1 executive order and btc PoW mining in the US is dead overnight.
*That means your btc becomes worthless, literally overnight with just the stroke of a pen.*

FYI: What does Vitalik Buterin think about Proof of Stake?
https://cointelegraph.com/news/pos-will-make-ethereum-more-secure-than-bitcoin-says-vitalik-buterin

What does Charles Hoskinson think about Proof of Stake?
https://forkast.news/video-audio/iohk-charles-hoskinson-proof-of-stake-better-than-proof-of-work/


What does White House Office of Science and Technology think about Proof of Stake?
https://blockworks.co/white-house-criticizes-proof-of-work-crypto-mining/

Proof-of-Work is the, yet, unique solution to Byzantine generals' problem. If you, a whining livable little bullshit, don't value this, it doesn't mean others don't. You're the only person who doesn't recognize the disadvantages of Proof-of-Stake, while they have been repeatedly told to you. I'm not going to repeat any; that'd be an actual waste of energy. Stop misinforming newbies. Dialogue isn't for you, we all know it already.

Alright. Back to ignore.

- Dogecoin -Will Live :In the process of converting to Proof of Stake
https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/crypto/heres-why-dogecoin-is-migrating-to-proof-of-stake-consensus-mechanism-7756973/

US has already taken care of privacy coins with FATF.
And the exchanges that want US investment dumped privacy coins already.
https://cryptoslate.com/crypto-money-laundering-rules-to-be-in-place-by-june-says-fatf/
https://cryptoslate.com/bittrex-us-to-remove-the-markets-for-top-privacy-coins-including-monero-zcash-and-dash/

I know you are not a US citizen, so I will explain.
In the US , the sitting President can issue a little thing called executive order.
https://www.phe.gov/s3/law/Pages/ExecOrders.aspx
One of the responsibilities of a sitting US president is to Protect the American People and American Infrastructure.
The Loss of a single US power grid caused by PoW mining crashing any of the grids,
could potentially kill millions upon millions of Americans.
Which is why not banning PoW would be dereliction of Presidential responsibility.
https://flipboard.com/topic/pollution/limit-or-eliminate-biden-executive-order-triggers-shock-u-s-bitcoin-ban-propos/a-lp2GunLlQ8i1iscosrxElQ%3Aa%3A23460606-dd306aba00%2Fforbes.com
The White House Office of Science and Technology is recommending to the US President that PoW be Eliminated from the US.
And 1 executive order and btc PoW mining in the US is dead overnight.

Even if the dangers to the power grids were not real, which the danger of grid collapse is real,
the facts that 1 man has the power with a pen and piece of paper to utterly destroy btc , is the largest security risk to btc,
and btc PoW supporters want to hide their heads in the sand and pretend it can't happen,
Not only is PoW going to be banned , the ban is coming sooner than any of us expect.
 

Once again you arrive with your antics of proof of work being an energy monster that on the verge of being banned, when even Ethereum's own (former) miners disagree with you.

The truth is, banning Proof of Work will immediately kill the following cryptocurrencies:

- Bitcoin
- Litecoin
- Dogecoin
- Monero
- Dash
- Zcash
- The dozens of cyptocurrencies listed here

Do you really think all these guys are going to stand idly or rush to cripple their networks with the market-manipulation-capable PoS while Congress hurriedly wants to put a bullet through their chests?

You'd have to be looney to believe that governmental attempts to kill decentalized mining are going to succeed, since by its very nature it operates worldwide. Better start wearing your Elmer Fudd hunting cap now...

Ethereum chose to shoot itself in the foot. They have freedom to do that if they want.

While Bitcoin PoW continues to be an insanely stupid waste of energy resources.

Ethereum has evolved leaving behind the dead-end technology know as Proof of work/Waste.

https://decrypt.co/109848/ethereum-energy-carbon-footprint-down-99-percent-merge


When Btc is banned for refusing to evolve, BTC PoW supporters have no one to blame but themselves.
https://flipboard.com/topic/pollution/limit-or-eliminate-biden-executive-order-triggers-shock-u-s-bitcoin-ban-propos/a-lp2GunLlQ8i1iscosrxElQ%3Aa%3A23460606-dd306aba00%2Fforbes.com

I think Saylor leaves out the strongest argument for Bitcoin and its benefits to the environment. Fiat money is a claim on energy and materials. These claims are increasing exponentially (they must because of the embedded growth obligations of the modern economy). However, energy and materials are not increasing exponentially, and their growth is actually decreasing (the energy crisis started a decade ago).

Human progress is currently measured in GDP - the amount of stuff we make. GDP and energy are tied 1-1 - GDP can only go up when energy goes up. The fiat claims on energy and materials drive up the incentive to create "stuff", no matter how trivial, because thats currently how human progress is measured, exponentially increasing the cost to the environment (every product starts with a fire burning fossil fuels somewhere).

As the delta between these claims and the underlying physical reality increases further and further, driving more pollution, a reset is inevitable (and has begun). Bitcoin is the ideal candidate as the landing spot for that reset. A bitcoin based claim on energy and materials is much closer to the underlying physical reality of our biosphere, since these claims cannot be exponential(limited amount of bitcoin). We're headed towards the collapse of embedded growth obligation, and a cleaner future based on bitcoin, with much more considered product development, a reduction in the amount of nonsense trinkets produced, and a cleaner environment.

At a time when the pressure on bitcoin from the point of view of energy use for its extraction is growing, the Ethereum network has switched to a PoS algorithm and in support of bitcoin as a hard currency, Michael Saylor criticized opponents of bitcoin hiding behind, according to him, misinformation about the harmful impact on the environment of the energy used for bitcoin mining. Posting seven of his "high-level thoughts” about BTC mining and its impact on the environment.

https://twitter.com/saylor/status/1570090411246370816



In short:

1.Bitcoin Energy Utilization: The energy powering the Bitcoin network is the least valuable, cheapest energy reserve left after 99.85% of the world's energy is allocated for other purposes.
2.Bitcoin vs. Other Industries: Energy efficiency of mining ~ 59.5% of energy comes from sustainable sources, and energy efficiency increased by 46% year-on-year.
3.Bitcoin Value Creation & Energy Intensity: Bitcoin has the lowest energy consumption since the cost of production (BTC) is 100 times higher than the cost of energy consumed.
4.Bitcoin vs. Other Cryptos: Comparison of the PoS network with Bitcoin.it doesn't make sense because creating a digital product without an issuer that serves as “digital gold” is an innovation.
5.Bitcoin & Carbon Emissions: 99.92% of the world's carbon emissions are related to industrial energy use, and are not related to bitcoin mining.
6.Bitcoin & Environmental Benefits: Rather, bitcoin is very useful for the environment, since it can be used to monetize natural gas or methane energy sources.
7.Bitcoin & Global Energy: Bitcoin is an egalitarian financial asset offering financial accessibility to everyone, and Bitcoin mining is an egalitarian technology industry offering commercial accessibility to anyone.

More details can be found here: https://www.michael.com/en/resources/bitcoin-mining-and-the-environment

Sometimes I just close my eyes and open it to see if my Bitcoin is still there...The attack is too much and I think these people need to leave us alone and allow us enjoy what we are holding. I keep asking myself if it is a crime for us to love what others hate? It is very clear that the government of some regions do not want to see us smile again or keep holding our Bitcoin.

I can see so many agitations and attack against Bitcoin being a bad substance to our ecosystem when their are lots of dangerous gases being generated by industries, motor cars and others that had been causing climate change for ages.
I like to seat down and watch those Bitcoin antagonists...they are really missing from buying the dip 😂

in my opinion bitcoin will not make the environment a disaster, on the contrary bitcoin will be a boon to everyone who needs bitcoin. because so many in this world are helped by bitcoin. including myself. moreover, the world economy is currently unstable or down. so the existence of bitcoin helps a lot for those who are interested in investing in bitcoin. especially now that there are unemployment everywhere, and I see finally because they are no longer working in companies because the world economy is down, and by being forced to leave the company, many of them finally choose to invest in bitcoin. long term or short term investment. and many of them are now successful. and when it comes to electricity, in my opinion, don't blame bitcoin too much. because those who use electricity are a lot and those who use electricity for bitcoin are only a small part of the number of electricity users in the world.

Indeed, took me a while to realise that.
Fillippone only has an opposable thumb.

Just kidding: it's not that clients are to be blamed for bad UX.

gotta love the Q2 report.. pretending its over 250TW usage
https://bitcoinminingcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2022.07.19-BMC-Presentation-Q2-22-Presentation.pdf

the report says it is sourcing its data from the BMC "estimates"
gotta love a BMC report using itself as its source.....

however.. the BMC "estimates" of said source page.. is saying
https://bitcoinminingcouncil.com/bitcoin-mining-electricity-mix-increased-to-59-5-sustainable-in-q2-2022/

well we know the hashrate for the YEAR was below 210EH average.. but lets extreme the numbers purely for easy math and pretend the year was actually 210EH average all year, just for giggles

210EH all year would be= 10GW an hour
=240 GW a day = 87.6TW a year

yep at most extreme. 87.6TW a year.. not 253

..
heck.. lets run some more math..
at 52.5k blocks per year 328125btc a year
and lets say a 4cent per kw electric
is about $10678.86 in just electric per btc at the giggly extreme rate i mathed

and wait for it.. drum roll....  $30841.90 per BTC at the BMC Q2 reports usage of 253TW .. just for electricity cost

so yea.. their math is wrong on MANY levels.
because if their math was right. and you then add in the hardware cost of mining(asic equipment cost ontop)
it means that the world is all mining at a loss even if they all everywhere mined for 4cents/kw..

..
further math.
so the source of bmc source says its doing 21.1eh per 1GW
so lets work out how they found that 'efficiency'

21.1EH for 1GW
=21,100,000thash for 1,000,000kw
=21,100thash for 1000kw
=21.1thash for 1kw
=95th for 4.5kw

again looks like they are using bad efficiency for 2022
after all we have 140th for 3.01kw in 2022
after all we have 110th for 3.25kw in 2021
after all we have 95th for 3.25kw in 2020
after all we have 56Th for 2.52kw (s17 in apr2019)
after all we have 28Th for 1.59kw (s15 in dec2018)

seems they are average 'estimating' the efficiency that is roughly the s17 from april 2019 batch/time period, but using that as the 2022 efficiency number

Thanks, I fixed the bad link.


You should be able to access the full slides deck clicking any of the slides I posted here, as the link is the same.

It is actually in the website: go to their website, scroll to “ BMC Press Releases and Resources” and then click on “Global Bitcoin Mining Data Review - Q2 2022”

The video title of link you shared is "Bitcoin Mining Council Q4 2021 Briefing", the correct link for 22Q1 is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uotDxbKJmlo. Their video also state the slides available on their website, but i couldn't find any relevant page/file. Fortunately @saylor on Twitter share the link, so here's the direct link for those who want to see 22Q2 slides https://bitcoinminingcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2022.07.19-BMC-Presentation-Q2-22-Presentation.pdf.

I should, i love hot weather. And i stayed in this kind of weather without AC many times. Im not saying others should, so maybe show your politicians that you actually understand these problems, so they can’t blame it on others easily and keep fooling you.


There’s no Bitcoin mining around here and yet we have the same problems. Maybe because energy prices have nothing to do with Bitcoin and availability of electricity neither? Where i live we probably already paid 3x as much as texans and it’s still rising, so ik better what it’s like. Just don’t confuse something other people are responsible for with Bitcoin, just because it sounds like an easy solution. So stop confusing the two or prove it.


A communist party that sees their monetary monopoly threatened cares about the environment first, or maybe it could be something else? If you look at their track record you must be naive to think that any of their decisions have any of these considerations.

It secures the network so it’s not wasted, it extends energy infrastructure so it’s not wasted, it’s what allows money to be decentralized so it’s not wasted, it’s a buyer for electricity 24/7 which is needed so it’s not wasted, it triggers PoS shills, politicians and other cringe people so it couldn’t be more worth it.


Lazy to read?

So let’s conclude, let me just build the most outdated grid that can’t even serve the demand of the market and instead of using this investment opportunity to better things, I’ll just use this topic politically and blame people that are not responsible for the grid that it doesn’t work? So let’s not actually better things and use the money i taxed people to do exactly this, but just find a scapegoat that distracts from actual failures. Sounds like they know what they’re doing and serving the people.

@tadamichi,

Maybe you should move to Texas, you know to show your support of PoW miners.
Since you want to pretend like you know more than the people living there.

You don't need electricity , so you should enjoy 120 degrees real feel temps with no AC because of rolling blackouts.  

At the very least you should go to one of their town hall meetings,
to let them know how stupid they are for complaining about rolling blackouts and energy bills that doubled.
Go ahead , let them know that it is all fud and how smart you think you are.  

Oh , and why did China Ban BTC PoW mining again?
According to you , it can't be energy waste so what was it?  


Want to pretend BTC miners did not cause energy problems in Kazakhstan.
https://www.yahoo.com/video/kazakhstan-crypto-mining-clampdown-uncovers-113333906.html

Funny , how everywhere BTC miners start mining has energy blackouts.
Must really just be bad luck.
or
dare we say the miners are causing the problems.

Ask your Unicorn and see what he thinks, he has to be smarter than you tadamichi.     

They’re on when there’s not enough stress on the grid, so it’s not destabilising. It’s simply using whats built to be used, when it’s not used as much by people. Load profiles vary by season, time of day etc. Peak demand usually occurs in the morning and evening, when people are at home. So you will have a lot of hours during the day/night where this electricity usage isn’t „destabilising“ anything, as energy demand is low during these hours. If miners actually increase demand during these time, they’re helping financing the entire infrastructure for everyone. Also many miners are adding more capacity, that can actually be used in the grid when needed. Regular people are also the highest paying customers, we see them get prioritised every time. Miners are not taking anything from anyone.


They probably need to hook up to the grid, because renewables don’t work 24/7 and so they can give energy to the grid when needed. But if they only use energy during non-peak hours it’s no problem for the grid. It’s already handled trough price, because Bitcoin mining won’t be profitable when people need this energy, so we don’t see them using the energy people need. Miners that completely rely on the grid will probably go bankrupt sooner or later, as they don’t have additional income trough the grid and won’t be able to compete in the future, when lower energy prices are needed for mining to stay profitable. This is all already handled trough Bitcoins incentives.


Nah man if we wanna fix this energy mess we should acknowledge truth. Mining load is flexible, it can be turnt back on when this energy isn’t needed otherwise. And this works perfectly in a decentralised worldwide network.

It’s simple, if the grid can’t handle it they simply won’t get the electricity. So miners actually need to increase the capacity to not go bankrupt with that much competition. Relying solely on the grid won’t work for them, so relax. People will always be prioritised, not miners.


Thanks for the laughs, did you consider working for current governments? You might be a good fit. If this doesn’t work out, i can enlist you in some psychological studies, as this special case deserves some serious studying.


I feel bad for the US, i thought propaganda was already bad where im at.


A cringe mob of hysterical people that doesn’t understand what they’re shouting about, what should someone take from this? It only reflects bad on them. Makes you question how many people in the population can actually use their brain.

Permit me to say that this is wrong, look at the statistics placed right before you from @fillippone, at least you should be able to read them clearly to understand what its coming out from there and what government and other source of pollutant contributed, another way is for yiu to check through previous discussions on this same subject matter and see more better, if they are saying it doesn't mean its actually it.

Do you have the ability to reason?
If so you realize the reason the miners stabilized the power grid was they turned off their miners,
which means the action of keeping them on, destabilized the power grid.

You are giving them credit for momentarily stopping their overuse of the grid power,
Which they have already restarted, draining the grid.

If your miners actually built power plants, as you claim, why are they needing to hook up to the grid.
If they did not suck the power from the grid, but remained isolated , they would be of little concern.

Like I said earlier.
The only way to make Proof of Waste energy efficient is to turn it off.
The mistake is letting the miners turn it back on.  

Funny how you totally missed the following:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/14/23206795/bitcoin-crypto-mining-electricity-texas-grid-energy-bills-emissions

But you being a btc cultist, I can see why reality escapes you.  

What people need to get through their heads,
It is not PoW vs PoS,
PoS won years ago, as one can easily tell from the lack of new PoW coin designs and the numerous new PoS designs.

It is PoW vs People right to use affordable energy.
PoW vs Having an Air Conditioner
PoW vs Having electric Heat
PoW vs Having Lights
PoW vs Having Hot Water/Cook Food
PoW vs Playing Video Games
PoW vs Having Freezer/Refrigerator
PoW vs Basically anything else using electricity

Which is why PoW is a dead end, because eventually it prevents people from using energy for anything else.
How are the btc cultist going to spin it , when the BTC PoW miners cause a grid collapse,
and a multitude of people die in Texas because of pure PoW miner's greed.
It will be good if the PoW ban happens before that scenario happens, but odds are currently 50/50,
that Texans die needlessly for PoW miners greed.  

FYI:   https://energsustainsoc.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13705-019-0199-y

FYI2:  https://www.change.org/p/no-to-riot-bitcoin-mine-in-navarro-county

Like I said , it is PoW vs People.
Which is why the banning of PoW is a future guarantee.  

It’s simple supply&demand as has been explained to you many times. Miners build energy infrastructure and when there’s high demand in the grid, it will be more profitable to give power to the grid than to mine Bitcoin. So miners just turn off their machines and help the power infrastructure out. Over 1000 megawatts can already be put into the texan grid like this dynamically, simply when needed. 1000 megawatts gives us 1.000.000 kW, this are 24.000.000 kWh in a day, the average texan household uses 39.2 kWh in a day¹. So it can power an additional 612.244 households when needed, doesn’t sound like something negative to me. We could actually need more of this. Even if the electricity usage is much higher in summer for the average household, there’s still a lot of people helped out trough Bitcoin mining infrastructure, even if it was just half of that in summer. No need to develop energy phobias and to become hysterical. Extension of energy infrastructure is actually what will help the grid out, and Bitcoins incentives is what makes this possible in an uncomplicated way.

[1] https://www.texaselectricityratings.com/blog/what-is-the-average-daily-kwh-usage-per-household-in-texas/

And as you can see here, that’s exactly what’s happening.

A great defense article about Bitcoin, it is undeniable that Bitcoin wastes a lot of energy and participates in polluting the environment but it is not the only one that does this, there are many industries that pollute the environment and the atmosphere more than Bitcoin but Bitcoin is deliberately targeted, the main reason is known to all Bitcoin is attacked Because it is a symbol of decentralization and privacy.
I especially liked the “Bitcoin to a battery” analogy, but is this really true? Is there really amounts of energy needed by those who consume it? All countries always complain about the need for energy and are looking for alternative or additional solutions, so I do not know how true this is?