What the f does that mean
F'd if I know, I just work here
Topic: Deepbit Approaching 50% Once Again - page 2. (Read 19126 times)
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
What the f does that mean
F'd if I know, I just work here
What the f does that mean
F'd if I know, I just work here
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.
there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger. analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environmental, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.
There are other competing pools. One, for instance, is Bitcoins.lc. 0% fee; you will make more in the long run (around 3% more...)
please read what i've said. 0 fee don't compare with highest earning pool even if it is not free! prove otherwise and I may convert. please run 2 identical cards side by side for a week and show earnings in bitcoins.lc and earnings in deepbit, if you get more coins in bitcoins.lc and can prove it make most short/long term then we'll talk, actually you will have nice chunk converted from deepbit. so far reason tells me i have more luck with deepbit even if it's at premium cost.
Err how do you think bitcoin mining works?
At time scales of a week, yes, you will make 3% more on a 0% fee pool. LUCK is the same on every pool. Deepbit has more miners, therefore can solve a block quicker, but you get much less payout per block (LESS 3%). Another pool w/ less miners working will take longer to solve a block, but the payout is higher.
It genuinely makes more sense to go to a different pool.
Tycho charges a 3% fee for Proportional work and a 10% fee for his Pay-Per-Share model. If any miner were to switch to a 0% fee pool, of which there are a few, that miner would earn 3-10% more BTC.
People have the misconception that being in a larger pool guarantees you will make more BTC. This isn't the case. Having more hashing power just means that the variability of what you earn for each block will be more stable. On a smaller pool, the amount an individual earns for each block will vary more, sometimes by several bitcents. Averaged out over time, usually 7 days is all it takes, the total amount earned from each pool, if you discounted the fees they take out, would be the same.
With the exception of Tycho's instant payout button, there is NO advantage to mining on Deepbit that can't be found elsewhere.
Tycho charges a 3% fee for Proportional work and a 10% fee for his Pay-Per-Share model. If any miner were to switch to a 0% fee pool, of which there are a few, that miner would earn 3-10% more BTC.
People have the misconception that being in a larger pool guarantees you will make more BTC. This isn't the case. Having more hashing power just means that the variability of what you earn for each block will be more stable. On a smaller pool, the amount an individual earns for each block will vary more, sometimes by several bitcents. Averaged out over time, usually 7 days is all it takes, the total amount earned from each pool, if you discounted the fees they take out, would be the same.
With the exception of Tycho's instant payout button, there is NO advantage to mining on Deepbit that can't be found elsewhere.
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.
there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger. analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environmental, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.
There are other competing pools. One, for instance, is Bitcoins.lc. 0% fee; you will make more in the long run (around 3% more...)
please read what i've said. 0 fee don't compare with highest earning pool even if it is not free! prove otherwise and I may convert. please run 2 identical cards side by side for a week and show earnings in bitcoins.lc and earnings in deepbit, if you get more coins in bitcoins.lc and can prove it make most short/long term then we'll talk, actually you will have nice chunk converted from deepbit. so far reason tells me i have more luck with deepbit even if it's at premium cost.
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.
there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger. analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environmental, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.
There are other competing pools. One, for instance, is Bitcoins.lc. 0% fee; you will make more in the long run (around 3% more...)
I honestly am not that bad to be honest, I wouldnt maliciously attempt to take a pool down, I have no idea how to.
I can understand however people who have invested thousands of poinds / $ into mining rig etc getting worried, however, my mining rig is my gaming rig, 6990 and a 6970 in trifire, I had already bought the stuff, what i make back from it (which so far is more than both cards combined) is free money for me, its good while it lasts but one thing people didnt bank on is GREED - its how the world falls down guys.
Can anyone genuinely say, that if they were making hundereds of thousands of pounds that they would give it up? he is going to set himself and his family up for life if it carried on like this, I have to say, if it was me, I dont think id do it, and i think if others were in the same situation 99% of people wouldnt want to lose that income.
I can understand however people who have invested thousands of poinds / $ into mining rig etc getting worried, however, my mining rig is my gaming rig, 6990 and a 6970 in trifire, I had already bought the stuff, what i make back from it (which so far is more than both cards combined) is free money for me, its good while it lasts but one thing people didnt bank on is GREED - its how the world falls down guys.
Can anyone genuinely say, that if they were making hundereds of thousands of pounds that they would give it up? he is going to set himself and his family up for life if it carried on like this, I have to say, if it was me, I dont think id do it, and i think if others were in the same situation 99% of people wouldnt want to lose that income.
Why on earth would [Tycho] limit his pool, do you honestly think he cares about Bitcoins? Nope, he is making a LOT of money, far more than Im sure people realise, even if it does go down, hes built a (very nice) website and pool and is reaping the rewards from creating something which cost him almost nothing.
Would you give up thousands and thousands of free dollars? Nope, you wouldnt if you were running the pool.
Yes, it might affect the security of Deepbit, but if it does happen, he will be sat there with 10's if not 100's of thousands of $$ / EUR / £ - im sure it wont tug on his heartstrings at all.
Would you give up thousands and thousands of free dollars? Nope, you wouldnt if you were running the pool.
Yes, it might affect the security of Deepbit, but if it does happen, he will be sat there with 10's if not 100's of thousands of $$ / EUR / £ - im sure it wont tug on his heartstrings at all.
Then you wouldn't mind DDoS'ing the pool?
Why on earth would [Tycho] limit his pool, do you honestly think he cares about Bitcoins? Nope, he is making a LOT of money, far more than Im sure people realise, even if it does go down, hes built a (very nice) website and pool and is reaping the rewards from creating something which cost him almost nothing.
Would you give up thousands and thousands of free dollars? Nope, you wouldnt if you were running the pool.
Yes, it might affect the security of Deepbit, but if it does happen, he will be sat there with 10's if not 100's of thousands of $$ / EUR / £ - im sure it wont tug on his heartstrings at all.
Hes making money off other people doing the work, hell i wish i had the knowledge to do it?!
Would you give up thousands and thousands of free dollars? Nope, you wouldnt if you were running the pool.
Yes, it might affect the security of Deepbit, but if it does happen, he will be sat there with 10's if not 100's of thousands of $$ / EUR / £ - im sure it wont tug on his heartstrings at all.
Hes making money off other people doing the work, hell i wish i had the knowledge to do it?!
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.
there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger. analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environment, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.
Deepbit DDOS tool here: http://www.mediafire.com/?089mnf5vg6rr6m6
Well this is simply the problem with people (today? always?) that is widespread, not limited to bitcoin. The old aphorism "If it aint broke, don't fix it." comes from this thinking. I don't really know how to get people to realize that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." They just simply don't seem to want to listen to it. This is part of why I don't feel it is ethical to attack Tycho for what is not really his fault but ours.
I agree that I'd prefer to see deepbit continue for the long haul, but if we are in a small model world version of what bitcoin will some day be, I don't really see the point of saving something doomed to fail.
EDIT: And if this turns out to not be a problem at all, that's great too. Yay.
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.
Deepbit DDOS tool here: http://www.mediafire.com/?b7gnz418m1w947d
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365
When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.
I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
That would not happen at all. The fact that few deepbit users have even seen this thread is proof of that.I never thought I'd have to say this, but we'll need to start a bounty to DDoS deepbit if Tycho doesn't do SOMETHING soon.
I agree that people seem to have a weirdly grand idea of the users of deepbit. Deepbit users can't be bothered to nip a potential problem in the bud if it doesn't affect them, but if there was a malicious event initiated by deepbit against other pools that didn't affect deepbit users they would suddenly rise up in arms?
I don't want to start a pool war though, announcing deepbit DDoSes certainly isn't an appropriate response in my eyes. People will have to live with the consequences of their actions, if deepbit gets so large that it eventually overwhelms bitcoin and causes peoples money glazed eyes to miss the looming demise of what they expect to be a never ending gravy train, well, so be it.
DDoS you say?
http://www.mediafire.com/?089mnf5vg6rr6m6
If they hit 50%; DL and run start.bat.
EDIT: This is NOT something I want to do; it is the security of Bitcoin that I am interested in. I dont want to see something as great as this go down the toilet due to a single pool gaining too much power.
It's rather irresponsible of both Tycho and the miners on Deepbit to continue in the current fashion.
I can understand Tycho's personal hesitation to limit the number of users allowed to mine at Deepbit considering he's probably making a lot of money right now. However, his short term gains could very well disappear if something were to happen to destabilize the whole Bitcoin economy as a result of one pool's greater than 50% share of the hashing power.
I think the increased fee structure is a brilliant idea to provide Tycho with more income while also using market principles to drive some users to other pools. It could be instituted with a rather low rate increase for different levels at first and then ramped up to drop network power down to the desired global level.
As for miners, I've never understood people's fascination with Deepbit. You're paying through the nose in order to get an instant payout feature. Have some patience and settle in for the long haul, you'll make more coin and stress less.
I can understand Tycho's personal hesitation to limit the number of users allowed to mine at Deepbit considering he's probably making a lot of money right now. However, his short term gains could very well disappear if something were to happen to destabilize the whole Bitcoin economy as a result of one pool's greater than 50% share of the hashing power.
I think the increased fee structure is a brilliant idea to provide Tycho with more income while also using market principles to drive some users to other pools. It could be instituted with a rather low rate increase for different levels at first and then ramped up to drop network power down to the desired global level.
As for miners, I've never understood people's fascination with Deepbit. You're paying through the nose in order to get an instant payout feature. Have some patience and settle in for the long haul, you'll make more coin and stress less.
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
That would not happen at all. The fact that few deepbit users have even seen this thread is proof of that.I never thought I'd have to say this, but we'll need to start a bounty to DDoS deepbit if Tycho doesn't do SOMETHING soon.
I agree that people seem to have a weirdly grand idea of the users of deepbit. Deepbit users can't be bothered to nip a potential problem in the bud if it doesn't affect them, but if there was a malicious event initiated by deepbit against other pools that didn't affect deepbit users they would suddenly rise up in arms?
I don't want to start a pool war though, announcing deepbit DDoSes certainly isn't an appropriate response in my eyes. People will have to live with the consequences of their actions, if deepbit gets so large that it eventually overwhelms bitcoin and causes peoples money glazed eyes to miss the looming demise of what they expect to be a never ending gravy train, well, so be it.
if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.
That would not happen at all. The fact that few deepbit users have even seen this thread is proof of that.I never thought I'd have to say this, but we'll need to start a bounty to DDoS deepbit if Tycho doesn't do SOMETHING soon.
But, when about 10% of people move from deepbit to another 0% fee pool, then it will fix current situation, won't it?
The more the better, but if 10% of Tycho's users moved out that would definitely grant a large margin of error. The problem is, what is 10% currently? He has about 2.2THash of power, so that's 220GHash. If you assume each user as having 850MHash of power (which is more than most actually have) that's about 250 people.
There aren't even half of 250 replies in this thread. It's a bigger feat to accomplish than you might think.
They will notice (umm, some of them), when the increased fee will be announced. Check my original post.
All this panic is amusing to me. I'd rather see what attacks can be accomplished and how the community can recover from a successful attack. That way, when people ask "what happens if..." we can say "it did happen and we survived it". Of course, some people are a little over-invested and don't find it amusing at all.
This!!
Honestly, people need to stop freaking out.
There is a very specific security threat when a single entity controls 50% of the networks hashing power.
50% isn't actually a hard limit. It is possible to do the same attack with 40% or even less, it will just succeed less often.There are more problems than simply forking the block chain and double spending. 50% is a hard limit for being given control of parts of the block transactions. Leading to a whole can of worms in the grand scheme of bitcoin. The idea is that the less opportunity there is for malicious and potentially devastating problems with the block chain the more trust there can be in the idea of bitcoin as a viable tool.
Approaching 40-50+% lends itself to being far more vulnerable to all kinds of faith shattering events.
Well, Bitcoins.lc has NO fee. So there is a good option.
But, when about 10% of people move from deepbit to another 0% fee pool, then it will fix current situation, won't it?
The more the better, but if 10% of Tycho's users moved out that would definitely grant a large margin of error. The problem is, what is 10% currently? He has about 2.2THash of power, so that's 220GHash. If you assume each user as having 850MHash of power (which is more than most actually have) that's about 250 people.
There aren't even half of 250 replies in this thread. It's a bigger feat to accomplish than you might think.
All this panic is amusing to me. I'd rather see what attacks can be accomplished and how the community can recover from a successful attack. That way, when people ask "what happens if..." we can say "it did happen and we survived it". Of course, some people are a little over-invested and don't find it amusing at all.
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