DefaultTrust is BAD. Very bad. | Bitcointalksearch.org

TECSHARE

legendary

Activity: 3318

Merit: 2008

First Exclusion Ever

Quote from: ibminer on November 06, 2014, 10:50:39 AM

If you are good at what you do, and you appear to be a respected trader, then some guy posting nonsense shouldn't really effect you.

... And you know this doesn't effect me how? Are you clairvoyant? Can you see when I get a reduction is responses to my threads because of this behavior? Its easy to write this off when it doesn't effect you.

Quote from: murraypaul on November 06, 2014, 10:57:09 AM

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 06, 2014, 10:37:04 AM

Funny how you find me defending myself from harassment and direct attacks on my trading are some how unwarranted reasons for use of feedback.

The issue is that you left false feedback, saying you has lost/risked BTC when you had not.

A) I corrected this already not knowing it was a violation.... what is the issue about now? BTW, I put a number 1 into a field (which I have now deleted), I never said with words that he robbed me. You are making it sound like I was actively lying about him when I clearly stated he was marked for harassment.

B) So because I have shown myself to be trustworthy, I should just stand by like a royal guard and let tourists slap my face because my responsibility is to serve as an example rather than to protect my trading? P.S. I am not on the default trust.

murraypaul

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 06, 2014, 10:37:04 AM

Funny how you find me defending myself from harassment and direct attacks on my trading are some how unwarranted reasons for use of feedback.

The issue is that:
a) You left false feedback, saying you has lost/risked BTC when you had not.

Quote

Risked BTC amount is money that the person could have stolen or did steal

b) The DefaultTrust system means that your ratings mean much more than most other peoples', so that there is no 'equality of arms'. You can effectively leave bad feedback against almost anyone with no fear of retribution, as if they leave bad feedback about you, noone will see it. This isn't your fault, it is a broken system (hence the title of this thread).

ibminer

legendary

Activity: 1789

Merit: 2535

Goonies never say die.

Quote from: TECSHARE on November 06, 2014, 10:37:04 AM

Quote from: BadBear-Away on November 06, 2014, 04:53:12 AM

Quote from: galbros on November 06, 2014, 04:46:59 AM

This thread was the first thing I thought of after reading this recent thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tecshare-maliciously-abused-the-bitcointalk-trust-system-846683

I'd like to thank Lohoris again for convincing me to create my own trust list.

Indeed, thanks for bumping this. I've lost a lot of confidence in default trust and those entrusted with it due to that, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Funny how you find me defending myself from harassment and direct attacks on my trading are some how unwarranted reasons for use of feedback. Lets take a look at some other users feedback around here whom you are simply glossing over and instead assigning blame to me.

some examples:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=101763
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=138471
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=30747

Clearly my single defensive use of feedback to protect my reputation is more of an affront than leaving hundreds of negative trust ratings based on suspicions or personal issues.

Am I OK to leave negative trust for you because my opinion is that you abused the trust system?
Personally, I would argue no, but I think you might be OK with this? He has an opinion of you, you have an opinion of him, but it doesn't appear the trust system should have been involved.

I didn't think the feedback system was there to protect your own reputation and pointing fingers at other users and their behaviors appears childish and is only deflecting attention from your own actions

If you are good at what you do, and you appear to be a respected trader, then some guy posting nonsense shouldn't really effect you.

TECSHARE

legendary

Activity: 3318

Merit: 2008

First Exclusion Ever

Quote from: BadBear-Away on November 06, 2014, 04:53:12 AM

Quote from: galbros on November 06, 2014, 04:46:59 AM

This thread was the first thing I thought of after reading this recent thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tecshare-maliciously-abused-the-bitcointalk-trust-system-846683

I'd like to thank Lohoris again for convincing me to create my own trust list.

Indeed, thanks for bumping this. I've lost a lot of confidence in default trust and those entrusted with it due to that, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Funny how you find me defending myself from harassment and direct attacks on my trading are some how unwarranted reasons for use of feedback. Lets take a look at some other users feedback around here whom you are simply glossing over and instead assigning blame to me.

some examples:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=101763
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=138471
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=30747

Clearly my single defensive use of feedback to protect my reputation is more of an affront than leaving hundreds of negative trust ratings based on suspicions or personal issues.

BadBear

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1128

Quote from: BitCoinDream on November 06, 2014, 05:12:36 AM

as an admin is it difficult to reset it for yourself ?

Not really, but untrusted people with an admin account could do a lot of damage that can't easily be undone, and also see a lot of information that shouldn't be seen, so I feel obligated to protect it as much as I can. Global moderator accounts are much safer in those respects.

BitCoinDream

legendary

Activity: 2394

Merit: 1216

The revolution will be digital

Quote from: galbros on November 06, 2014, 04:46:59 AM

This thread was the first thing I thought of after reading this recent thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tecshare-maliciously-abused-the-bitcointalk-trust-system-846683

I'd like to thank Lohoris again for convincing me to create my own trust list.

This does not solve the problem as the majority of the users will still be using DefaultTrust and hence be misguided. The trust system is good, logical and be there. But, DefaultTrust should be abolished.

Quote from: BadBear-Away on November 06, 2014, 04:53:12 AM

-snip-

Indeed, thanks for bumping this. I've lost a lot of confidence in default trust and those entrusted with it due to that, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Why r u using a new account ? Even if u dont trust your current network to secure your password, as an admin is it difficult to reset it for yourself ?

BadBear-Away

newbie

Activity: 4

Merit: 0

Quote from: galbros on November 06, 2014, 04:46:59 AM

This thread was the first thing I thought of after reading this recent thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tecshare-maliciously-abused-the-bitcointalk-trust-system-846683

I'd like to thank Lohoris again for convincing me to create my own trust list.

Indeed, thanks for bumping this. I've lost a lot of confidence in default trust and those entrusted with it due to that, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

galbros

legendary

Activity: 1022

Merit: 1000

This thread was the first thing I thought of after reading this recent thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tecshare-maliciously-abused-the-bitcointalk-trust-system-846683

I'd like to thank Lohoris again for convincing me to create my own trust list.

Lohoris

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Bitgoblin

Quote from: nutildah on September 17, 2014, 11:46:42 PM

but doesn't being able to leave trust for anybody at any time obliterate the definition of "trust"?

No, you leave trust on anyone.

Anyone else may decide to trust you or not.

If they trust you, the trust you leave will affect the ratings they see.

If it wasn't for the idiotic DefaultTrust, it would be a pretty good system, actually.

Quote from: nutildah on September 17, 2014, 11:46:42 PM

For the longest time I was under the impression you could only collect negative trust if you were in a trade and didn't deliver. Ironically, "negative trust" left by a default user over their disagreement with my personal opinions supersedes positive trust left by a non-default user which involved a trade.

Either you moderate it, or you leave it up to the users.
If you moderate it, it's bad because it can be abused.
If you leave it to the users, it's up to you to decide who you trust or not, so people leaving strange trust will be irrelevant.

nutildah

legendary

Activity: 3010

Merit: 8114

Quote from: Lohoris on September 16, 2014, 05:45:05 PM

Quote from: nutildah on September 16, 2014, 12:31:23 AM

This is clear abuse of the trust system and exactly why default trust is BAD. Very Bad. As the title infers.

I never asked him to trust me. I never asked anyone to trust me. If you could legitimately be awarded negative trust for personal opinions we should all be at -1000 by now.

Anybody wanna step up and interject here? It would be appreciated. MsCollec seems to think he/she should just be able to leave people negative trust for any ol' reason. It sort of defeats the purpose of the system, wouldn't you agree?

You got it the other way around, I fear.

Anyone (User A) should leave any trust he wants to anybody (User B).

BUT there shouldn't be a Default Trust, so that unless someone User C specifically wants to trust User A, User B's rank for him will be unaffected.

That's how you build a working system.
The current one is dumb.

Yes, I agree with the second half, but doesn't being able to leave trust for anybody at any time obliterate the definition of "trust"? Why not just call it "negative karma" or something.

For the longest time I was under the impression you could only collect negative trust if you were in a trade and didn't deliver. Ironically, "negative trust" left by a default user over their disagreement with my personal opinions supersedes positive trust left by a non-default user which involved a trade.

So I agree with you and accept your premise, so long as the default trust list is removed (or MsCollec is taken off it... I mean, c'mon people, what kind of world do you want to live in here??).

Lohoris

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Bitgoblin

Quote from: nutildah on September 16, 2014, 12:31:23 AM

This is clear abuse of the trust system and exactly why default trust is BAD. Very Bad. As the title infers.

I never asked him to trust me. I never asked anyone to trust me. If you could legitimately be awarded negative trust for personal opinions we should all be at -1000 by now.

Anybody wanna step up and interject here? It would be appreciated. MsCollec seems to think he/she should just be able to leave people negative trust for any ol' reason. It sort of defeats the purpose of the system, wouldn't you agree?

You got it the other way around, I fear.

Anyone (User A) should leave any trust he wants to anybody (User B).

BUT there shouldn't be a Default Trust, so that unless someone User C specifically wants to trust User A, User B's rank for him will be unaffected.

That's how you build a working system.
The current one is dumb.

nutildah

legendary

Activity: 3010

Merit: 8114

Quote from: MsCollec on September 12, 2014, 08:34:28 AM

Oh sync has hidden premine, the coin has been active since May 13, 2014.
Anyone can check the source, if there's any hidden block.
https://github.com/MsCollec/sync
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/sync/

oh vootcoin, well it's a community takeover and i call it quit.

Now, what did i stole from you again Huh

You stole my 0 trust rating. You turned it into a -1 when I never asked for your trust in ANY way! Before you left me a -1 rating I had NEVER engaged in any conversation with you whatsoever!

This is clear abuse of the trust system and exactly why default trust is BAD. Very Bad. As the title infers.

I never asked him to trust me. I never asked anyone to trust me. If you could legitimately be awarded negative trust for personal opinions we should all be at -1000 by now.

Anybody wanna step up and interject here? It would be appreciated. MsCollec seems to think he/she should just be able to leave people negative trust for any ol' reason. It sort of defeats the purpose of the system, wouldn't you agree?

MsCollec

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1000

Oh sync has hidden premine, the coin has been active since May 13, 2014.
Anyone can check the source, if there's any hidden block.
https://github.com/MsCollec/sync
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/sync/

oh vootcoin, well it's a community takeover and i call it quit.

Now, what did i stole from you again Huh

nutildah

legendary

Activity: 3010

Merit: 8114

Quote from: MsCollec on September 12, 2014, 03:57:36 AM

Quote from: nutildah on September 12, 2014, 03:01:10 AM

I just would like to add to this thread with my complete agreement with the OP.

MsCollec, who I call a known scammer based on certain evidence, left me a -1 trust rating because they/he/she didn't like me warning others about Iconic Expert and advising the masses to be wary of him since he has been known to cheat people out of their money in the past. Please feel free to do a lil Google for him if you disagree or require immediate evidence.

So anyway, this is b.s. In what way did I ever ask MsCollec that he/she trust me? They had never even conversed with me before taking this action, which I think goes against every aspect of what the trust rating system is supposed to be used for. Here was his reasoning:

Trolls the forum

So this is acceptable because this person has spent more time here than me? In theory this idea should work, but only if the people in charge of such power use it for good instead of evil. Which lets face it, here a lot of the time, they simply don't. No offense to the good ones.

The negative was due to how you harassed other people on xcloudcoin thread. The dev had to close the thread and opened a self moderated because of you. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=722328.2200

You are trying to buy positive feedback

Quote from: nutildah on September 10, 2014, 05:56:17 PM

Quote from: Penner on September 10, 2014, 05:32:03 PM

Quote from: nutildah on September 10, 2014, 04:39:32 PM

I basically want to undo the negative trust rating left for me by known scammer MsCollec who didn't like the fact that I was calling him and IE out on their newest bs scam.

Anyway, please make me an offer. I will pay up to 40 satoshis per HIC and CC rate is negotiable. No escrow is necessary, I will pay up front granted you have a high trust rating and are willing to leave me a positive rating afterwards. (I will of course also return the favor).

Thank you!

Thats the same Wink

I beg to disagree. "Buying feedback" would be saying "I will give you .1 BTC if you write me a +1 trust rating."

I am saying, "Anyone want to trade BTC for their Colbert or HawaiiCoins." Giving feedback is a normal side result of this trading process.

I am trying to buy altcoins with BTC, not positive feedback for BTC.

There is a difference.

And you incorrectly moved my message because it has to do with trading Bitcoin for other things.

Below are the series of pm you're sending me.

Yes, I agree, that while I did nothing illegal I got carried away. I was frustrated that you would stoop so low as to abuse your authority and felt that I had little choice in recourse. I realize in hindsight I should have addressed my complaint through the proper channels.

But you didn't bother to reproduce my other message I sent you where we review what trust ratings you have received:

SYNC is a ponzi, hidden premine shitcoin.
- hidden premine(s)
- users were not informed about what the minimum balance must be for generating PoS dividends
- runs the thread like a dictator

This cocksucker sent me a pm telling me to send him 3BTC and then he will remove negative trust. He is a well-known blackmailer on this forum! Avoid! Avoid Avoid!

The new/ 2nd SYNC block explorer's Block 1, 2 and the premine addy do not coincide with the original BE's stats and figures.

The funds from SYNC and other coins are being used to, manipulate their respective markets and/or to covers the other coin(s) losses.

Be cautious with this expert manipulator. Manipulated VootCoin prices https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713874.60, and made jokes about it in the Sync thread. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8064070

This person was behind Voot scam.

Calls me a PnD expert, but has no proof. I guess Mscollect is just mad that I left a negative rating on him first, with proof mind you. The only PnD expert I see is you mscollect, with the way you handled Voot at the end there. Coward, manipulator, thief, scammer.

schizophrenic symptomatology

left negative trust rating over a matter of opinion in a forum post.. his pattern of behavior constitutes abuse of the trust system and he should be banned from the forum.

sock puppet

Schizofrenic scamer

Seeing as how its you and Iconic Expert who are the only 2 to leave me negative feedbacks (+ your sock puppet), I guess I should feel honored. Seeing as how these are the two most unashamed scammers currently free to destroy what's left of the reputation of crypto.

I can't believe more isn't done about them knowing full-well they are behind scam after scam, they are almost like false flag operations for why cryptocurrencies need more regulation. That's the level of their boldness.

So, punish me how you will, and let me know if the crime of being a dick is truly greater than that of being a thief, cheater or con artist.

MsCollec

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1000

Quote from: nutildah on September 12, 2014, 03:01:10 AM

I just would like to add to this thread with my complete agreement with the OP.

MsCollec, who I call a known scammer based on certain evidence, left me a -1 trust rating because they/he/she didn't like me warning others about Iconic Expert and advising the masses to be wary of him since he has been known to cheat people out of their money in the past. Please feel free to do a lil Google for him if you disagree or require immediate evidence.

So anyway, this is b.s. In what way did I ever ask MsCollec that he/she trust me? They had never even conversed with me before taking this action, which I think goes against every aspect of what the trust rating system is supposed to be used for. Here was his reasoning:

Trolls the forum

So this is acceptable because this person has spent more time here than me? In theory this idea should work, but only if the people in charge of such power use it for good instead of evil. Which lets face it, here a lot of the time, they simply don't. No offense to the good ones.

The negative was due to how you harassed other people on xcloudcoin thread. The dev had to close the thread and opened a self moderated because of you. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=722328.2200

You are trying to buy positive feedback

Quote from: nutildah on September 10, 2014, 05:56:17 PM

Quote from: Penner on September 10, 2014, 05:32:03 PM

Quote from: nutildah on September 10, 2014, 04:39:32 PM

I basically want to undo the negative trust rating left for me by known scammer MsCollec who didn't like the fact that I was calling him and IE out on their newest bs scam.

Anyway, please make me an offer. I will pay up to 40 satoshis per HIC and CC rate is negotiable. No escrow is necessary, I will pay up front granted you have a high trust rating and are willing to leave me a positive rating afterwards. (I will of course also return the favor).

Thank you!

Thats the same Wink

I beg to disagree. "Buying feedback" would be saying "I will give you .1 BTC if you write me a +1 trust rating."

I am saying, "Anyone want to trade BTC for their Colbert or HawaiiCoins." Giving feedback is a normal side result of this trading process.

I am trying to buy altcoins with BTC, not positive feedback for BTC.

There is a difference.

And you incorrectly moved my message because it has to do with trading Bitcoin for other things.

Below are the series of pm you're sending me.

Quote from: nutildah on September 12, 2014, 01:01:06 AM

You didn't get me banned the first time you dumb greedy fuck.

How are you not in jail already?

Quote from: nutildah on August 30, 2014, 06:28:18 PM

Your entire soul is composed of garbage.

Quote from: nutildah on August 31, 2014, 05:38:22 PM

I will be fucking with you for the remainder of your career here.

It doesn't matter if you remove my feedback, I am going to fuck you up.

Dickless Faggot.

Quote from: nutildah on August 31, 2014, 05:35:54 PM

Die a slow death you useless person made of garbage.

nutildah

legendary

Activity: 3010

Merit: 8114

I just would like to add to this thread with my complete agreement with the OP.

MsCollec, who I call a known scammer based on certain evidence, left me a -1 trust rating because they/he/she didn't like me warning others about Iconic Expert and advising the masses to be wary of him since he has been known to cheat people out of their money in the past. Please feel free to do a lil Google for him if you disagree or require immediate evidence.

So anyway, this is b.s. In what way did I ever ask MsCollec that he/she trust me? They had never even conversed with me before taking this action, which I think goes against every aspect of what the trust rating system is supposed to be used for. Here was his reasoning:

Trolls the forum

So this is acceptable because this person has spent more time here than me? In theory this idea should work, but only if the people in charge of such power use it for good instead of evil. Which lets face it, here a lot of the time, they simply don't. No offense to the good ones.

hilariousandco

global moderator

Activity: 4018

Merit: 2728

Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Quote from: EvilPanda on September 09, 2014, 02:39:04 PM

Quote from: hilariousandco on September 09, 2014, 09:04:44 AM

Mods don't have access to IPs; only admins. I can't say how frequently the bans are issued but they are used, but it wont stop persistent spammers as they will just use another proxy or tor etc. There's nothing that can be done about completely banning trolls really.

I know they can proxy or use dynamic IP, but you'd at least make their life harder.

How can we make their life harder without making innocent users' lives harder as well?

Quote from: EvilPanda on September 09, 2014, 02:39:04 PM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on September 09, 2014, 11:25:14 AM

In today's internet, most of the online identities are NOT attached with a certain IP or IP range. There are proxies, NAT box and the same person may physically access 2-3 different service providers... let alone the TOR usage. So, it is most likely that IP ban of one bad guy will affect n number of good guy associated with that IP. Hence, I think, IP ban is very very selective in nature and that's for the good reason.

I think you have to pay to be allowed to access this forum with TOR, so very few people are using it here. Most trolls aren't as sophisticated.

You only have to pay to use tor or a banned proxy if you sign up via it. Once you are signed up you can use tor or proxies freely.

BitCoinDream

legendary

Activity: 2394

Merit: 1216

The revolution will be digital

Quote from: EvilPanda on September 09, 2014, 02:39:04 PM

-snip-

Quote from: BitCoinDream on September 09, 2014, 11:25:14 AM

In today's internet, most of the online identities are NOT attached with a certain IP or IP range. There are proxies, NAT box and the same person may physically access 2-3 different service providers... let alone the TOR usage. So, it is most likely that IP ban of one bad guy will affect n number of good guy associated with that IP. Hence, I think, IP ban is very very selective in nature and that's for the good reason.

I think you have to pay to be allowed to access this forum with TOR, so very few people are using it here. Most trolls aren't as sophisticated.

I dint discuss about TOR and hence said "let alone the TOR usage". The other means are just explained before as proxies, NAT box etc that allows people to share IP. U wont be able to find the rotten apple among those sharing the IP.

BadBear

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1128

Mods can't, admins can.

Most of them are using proxies/tor, or once they get IP banned they will.

peligro

hero member

Activity: 593

Merit: 500

1NoBanksLuJPXf8Sc831fPqjrRpkQPKkEA

Quote from: BitCoinDream on September 09, 2014, 11:25:14 AM

Quote from: EvilPanda on September 09, 2014, 08:58:55 AM

My question, maybe not completely related to the trust issue: why permabans (ip bans) are so rarely used on the forum?
I noticed there's a real problem with people making multiple acounts for trolling purposes. They make a thread and populate it with their own posts from newbie accounts. This can be easily spotted if you check their registration dates and post history. I've also seen this done as a ban response in the meta section threads. These accounts are also used for personal attacks, FUD posting, trading trust ratings and so on.
If ~~moderators~~ Admins have access to IP's why not just simply block the puppeteer?

In today's internet, most of the online identities are NOT attached with a certain IP or IP range. There are proxies, NAT box and the same person may physically access 2-3 different service providers... let alone the TOR usage. So, it is most likely that IP ban of one bad guy will affect n number of good guy associated with that IP. Hence, I think, IP ban is very very selective in nature and that's for the good reason.

I remember reading that only Theymos can access IPs and not even other admins can do that.

Topic: DefaultTrust is BAD. Very bad. (Read 12878 times)