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Topic: delete - page 2. (Read 9586 times)

donator
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Gerald Davis
October 21, 2011, 01:46:28 PM
#94
*sigh* it's sad I am forced to state this but apparently it's necessary.  Going into a technological dark age != the absence of all technology. 

Who said anything about loss of all technology but crypto currencies are built on top of a pinnacle of increasingly complex technology.

Electrical power -> microprocessors -> personal computers -> global communication networks -> near istantaneous wireless data delivery

The idea that this complex and fragile "tech chain" would survive a technological dark age is dubious even on face value.  Hardened, independent, easily repaired technologies would be the ones which survive.    A catapult didn't require a massive global network of specialized industries to support it.

Global technological dark age = no crypto currencies.
donator
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Gerald Davis
October 21, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
#93
So as I originally stated I think the most PROBABLE scenario is that we continue to have exponential growth for near term.  Any economic model should be based on the most probable scenario don't the collapse of civilization as we know it.

So my assumptions about your beliefs are wrong but the reality is even worse... you are only planning on the now and current and not something viable for hundreds of years and hopefully longer....  I don't let the short term now greed and impulse factor cloud my judgement that the world needs something better that will last well beyond my lifetime.  Making a buck now is great but giving something that gives my great great grand children a better chance at a good economic future and freedom is far greater.

Unless you assumptions about long term 1000+ future blind you to the reality in short term and the system never lives beyond the short term.   Hate to break it to you but if we go into a technological dark age your ScamCoins aren't going to do your grandkids any good.   Good farming land, a deep well, firearms, and enough muscle to ensure nobody takes it would be worth a lot more.
sr. member
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October 21, 2011, 12:46:08 PM
#92
donator
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Gerald Davis
October 21, 2011, 12:43:54 PM
#91
Wow... that's way off base.  So I assume your from the fairy brigade that doesn't realize that history repeats itself time and time again?  My ideas are insane only if that is your belief... however even in your own post you semi-agreed you just qualified my statement with your own time frame.

Exactly.  I think in the near term those scenarios are highly unlikely.  Nothing is impossible.  An undetected long orbit asteroid could hit Earth tomorrow and wipe out all life but that is rather IMPROBABLE.  So while growth may not be expontential  forever it seems probable that will continue in the near term.

Quote
The advent of Gallium Arsinide chips that can be produced cost effectively will likely keep this law alive for some time, but if limited to Silicon chips we could be hitting a technology breakthrough barrier sooner than you might imagine since Silicon chips have physical electrical properties that limit how far they can take us.

We have at least 4 die shrinks before that happens.  That combined with other efficiency improvements (die reorganizations, yield improvements, production effciency gains, etc) means computing power likely will continue to increase exponentially for at least next two decades.   Moore's law has been declared dead many times in the past and yet it still remains



So as I originally stated I think the most PROBABLE scenario is that we continue to have exponential growth for near term.  Any economic model should be based on the most probable scenario dot the possible but improbable chance that we see the end of civilization as we know it.
sr. member
Activity: 294
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October 21, 2011, 12:42:08 PM
#90
if limited to Silicon chips we could be hitting a technology breakthrough barrier sooner than you might imagine since Silicon chips have physical electrical properties that limit how far they can take us.

You must not be aware of the development of three dimensional transistors. They look to bridge the gap to the next major paradigm quite nicely. http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/05/intel-re-invents-the-microchip.ars
donator
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Gerald Davis
October 21, 2011, 12:24:54 PM
#89
Now with concrete historical examples .... are you going to argue that one of the following will never happen:  1)  Innovation moves away from computing technology and moves to a new focus... say Energy hypothetically making way for the "Energy Age"  OR 2)  Mass economic collapse ushers a new dark age in which technology is set back in certain places for several hundred years?

Are these inconceivable to you?  Both examples I gave are actually very likely, notably a shifting of focus to energy instead of computing as global energy prices rise and fossil fuels increase in scarcity.

Inconveivable or improbable.  

Computing power per unit of cost has been doubling roughly every 2 years for last 4 decades.  That is a million fold increase in last 40 years.  Pretty much the definition of exponential.  The likekilhood of any of your insane scenarios happening in near term (say 1-2 decades) is highly improbable.  What is probable is that Moore's Law will continue for another two decades and continue to see exponential growth in computing power (at least in the near term).

2 decades of doubling every 2 years = 2^10 = 1000x fold increase in computing power.
sr. member
Activity: 518
Merit: 250
October 21, 2011, 12:22:58 PM
#88
viper... save your breath m8... the likes of taxes and BCX have no idea that someone can like the two most original digital crypto chains ever...... because given the evidence I've been shown they are kiddie-fiddling winde up merchants..... and for their sad-shit followers... well not really worth the mention really ;-)
sr. member
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October 21, 2011, 11:47:09 AM
#87
I never said Bitcoin was exponential, not sure how you inferred this.

When contrasting SolidCoin to Bitcoin you said of SolidCoin "inflation is not exponential". I assumed this to mean that you were saying that Bitcoin's inflation rate is exponential.

Every year SC will be inflated by X Coins +/- Y fixed variance of Coins .... This is not exponential.

Which of X or Y is increased by higher difficulty?

technological innovation is a never ending exponential rate of growth (which it's not)

Really? That's quite a claim. Moore's law has held true for about 50 years, and by the time we are no longer able to place more transistors into a 2D space we'll probably be ready to go 3D. So this is a very naive assumption. If difficulty is related to mining technology, and the inflation rate is related to difficulty, then inflation will be exponential.

sr. member
Activity: 294
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October 21, 2011, 09:32:47 AM
#86
2)  Inflation rate is not exponential

Bitcoin's inflation rate is not exponential, it tends toward zero.

With rise and fall of difficulty, as difficulty goes up so does the coin generation rate

So as technology improves and hash rates increase, so will the rate of coin generation? Sounds pretty exponential to me...
donator
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Gerald Davis
October 21, 2011, 09:21:46 AM
#85
You'll probably find they are not all kept live at once.... hence you have to track them down sequentially, hence you've got to find and kill 9 of them before the first one is replaced/restored..... dipshit.


Then you make sure your node is the one that replaces it (if you have 1 million coins of course)

The nice thing is you can use your "bad trust node" to reduce the hashing power needed to attack the network by reducing the effectiveness of the "good nodes".  With a normal block chain network you can build a "bad chain" in private and only publish it once you have longer chain than the good chain.  Since every hash has equal chance of finding the solution you can overcome the network with 51% of hashing power.  Eventually the good network's luck will break and your bad chain will be longer and thus trusted by clients.  This is the conventional "51% attack".

Now here is the super cool part.   With solid coin the good network can't start another odd block until the prior even block is signed by a trusted node. When not attacked the even blocks are signed within seconds because they are always 1 difficulty.   One doesn't need to keep the good trusted nodes offline forever; they just need to be slowed down.   If the average even block signing time goes from few seconds to say 60 seconds then that degrades the good network effective hashing power because they need the hash of the prior even block (which is now taking longer) in the header of the next odd block.  In otherwords they have been handicapped 58 seconds in a race towards the next block.

If you have a "bad trusted node" you can sign your bad chain blocks in a few second and thus your bad network can start to work on the next odd block right away gaining a headstart on each block.  Thus with a bad trusted node and rotating DDOS attack on other trusted nodes you could theoretically gain control of the block chain with <51% of network hashing power.  How much less?  Well that depends on how much you can delay/slow the good trusted node blocks (even blocks) in the long run.

Currently even blocks take on average 2 seconds and odd blocks on average 120 seconds to sign the block for a combined time of 122 seconds for each pair. If by attacking trusted nodes you slow down the average signing of even blocks by say 30 seconds then average total time for a pair of blocks is now 152 seconds.  However the bad network signed their even block in 2 seconds giving them 150 seconds to sign the odds block vs 122 seconds for the "good" network.  In that handicapped race the bad network will eventually have the longest chain with only 44% of network hashing power.  

The longer the trusted nodes can be delayed (on average) the more the bad network can handicap the race.  Since bad network can build chain in private you don't need to slow down each even block of the good chain just slow down the average even block signing time. 
hero member
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Wat
October 21, 2011, 04:05:54 AM
#84
You'll probably find they are not all kept live at once.... hence you have to track them down sequentially, hence you've got to find and kill 9 of them before the first one is replaced/restored..... dipshit.


Then you make sure your node is the one that replaces it (if you have 1 million coins of course)
sr. member
Activity: 518
Merit: 250
October 21, 2011, 03:14:54 AM
#83
You'll probably find they are not all kept live at once.... hence you have to track them down sequentially, hence you've got to find and kill 9 of them before the first one is replaced/restored..... dipshit.
donator
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Gerald Davis
October 20, 2011, 02:10:38 PM
#82
By the glorious leader of course.
hero member
Activity: 616
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Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)
October 20, 2011, 01:07:07 PM
#81
I meant to ask.... as a result of the "attack" I noticed the following:

1) There was a single 1 min stumble on block generation.
2) A different trusted node started producing the even blocks (or is it odd?).

What else?

Am I missing something?

Sorry, too lazy to read the whole thread here :-)


The point of the attack was to prove Solidcoin is not attack proof, it was a minor annoyance only. The chain did slow for a few minutes only but that node was down for over 40 minutes till they switched IP and Names.

Finally, It's not that you're too lazy to read the whole thread, it's that you're too stupid to think past what Coinhunter spoon feeds you. You're a Solidcoin "enthusiast", I know exactly who you are.


Yes I am, bitcoin too, so what? and don't bother telling me what I am/do.... I already know.

I now wonder that if were typical that it took 40 mins to bring a secure node back up (sounds fair) then you'd have to sequentially find 9 more nodes and successfully take them down in under 40 mins.

I'm just trying to work out if you've proven to the world shock horror a public service can be took down.... or that the 51% measures taken are successful.

Comments?


Why sequencialy? Why not find them all, in parallel or otherwise, beforehand and then go at them all at once? (possibly also taking the time to map the possible backup ones that are gonna be brought online  beforehand as well, to be ready to get them too if they show up)
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
October 20, 2011, 10:04:00 AM
#80
The real onslaught will come after the source is obtained.

~BCX~
Which is why the source will probably never be released. CH is hoping that security through obscurity is good enough.
You do realise right that saying that is calling CH an idiot - right?
There is no positive meaning to your statement.

From what I understand by reading the IRC logs is that Coinhunter is going to release an updated version client 2.01 or 2.02 for non trusted node miners and release that source. He has said he will not release version 2.00 source. It's plainly obvious he is simply going to clean up the bugs and release it, therefore pretending he released the source.

If he doesn't release the source for SC 2.0, nothing else really matters.

He must feel the block chain still requires a manual kill switch and manual reorg capability to remove undesirable people from the block chain  Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 518
Merit: 250
October 20, 2011, 07:17:15 AM
#79
I meant to ask.... as a result of the "attack" I noticed the following:

1) There was a single 1 min stumble on block generation.
2) A different trusted node started producing the even blocks (or is it odd?).

What else?

Am I missing something?

Sorry, too lazy to read the whole thread here :-)


The point of the attack was to prove Solidcoin is not attack proof, it was a minor annoyance only. The chain did slow for a few minutes only but that node was down for over 40 minutes till they switched IP and Names.

Finally, It's not that you're too lazy to read the whole thread, it's that you're too stupid to think past what Coinhunter spoon feeds you. You're a Solidcoin "enthusiast", I know exactly who you are.


Yes I am, bitcoin too, so what? and don't bother telling me what I am/do.... I already know.

I now wonder that if were typical that it took 40 mins to bring a secure node back up (sounds fair) then you'd have to sequentially find 9 more nodes and successfully take them down in under 40 mins.

I'm just trying to work out if you've proven to the world shock horror a public service can be took down.... or that the 51% measures taken are successful.

Comments?

legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
October 20, 2011, 04:45:16 AM
#78
The real onslaught will come after the source is obtained.

~BCX~
Which is why the source will probably never be released. CH is hoping that security through obscurity is good enough.
You do realise right that saying that is calling CH an idiot - right?
There is no positive meaning to your statement.
sr. member
Activity: 518
Merit: 250
October 20, 2011, 01:57:29 AM
#77
I meant to ask.... as a result of the "attack" I noticed the following:

1) There was a single 1 min stumble on block generation.
2) A different trusted node started producing the even blocks (or is it odd?).

What else?

Am I missing something?

Sorry, too lazy to read the whole thread here :-)
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
October 19, 2011, 07:19:05 PM
#76
The real onslaught will come after the source is obtained.

~BCX~
Which is why the source will probably never be released. CH is hoping that security through obscurity is good enough.

Security through obscurity is never good enough.

WEP, CSS, AACS, SecureRom (and every disc copy protection standard ever made), Mac OS bootloader, Console protection schemes, RSADSI, A5/1 (GSM phone encryption), Diebold.  History has hundreds of examples where dubious security through obscurity methods have been compromised.

If your system is secure then revealing the source code doesn't enable an attack.
If your system is insecure then hiding details may delay an attack but given enough attackers and enough value eventually the system will be compromised.  It merely delays the inevvitable.

Any system which tries otherwise violates Shannon's Maxim:
"The enemy knows the system"
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
October 19, 2011, 07:03:41 PM
#75
The real onslaught will come after the source is obtained.

~BCX~
Which is why the source will probably never be released. CH is hoping that security through obscurity is good enough.
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