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legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 10, 2014, 02:39:54 PM
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding or asking the question wrong. I was trying to ask if one could use their private key to identify an output of theirs as a mixin in a different transation. So, if an exchange were to begin using mixins, then their ability to identify they one of their outputs was used in someone else's ring would increase proportionally to the volume they handled?

Yes the issue is ownership (of the private key) not the same public address. Even if the exchange used different public addresses it would be the same.

Likewise this would apply to external CoinJoin-style mixers if a high volume exchange sent its transactions through a mixer and was a huge fraction of the volume there (they would know which parts of a mix are theirs, so could potentially identify other parts). The issue of poisoning is inherent in mixes, not how they are done.

As a second practical matter, I don't think (most?) exchange transactions today even use mixing, so even the sybil attack doesn't apply. That could change the future, although one would hope that there would also be other uses besides sending coins to an exchange constantly, otherwise who even cares.

Me! Regardless of the eventual level of penetration into society these coins get, pretty much every aspect of them is still fascinating on a technical level Cheesy

My point was that it doesn't really make sense to design a system where 90% of the transactions are done by a single party. Blockchains are slow, expensive, and complex. If a single party dominates so much of the activity a centralized processing system is likely better.

Quote
So, if there were two major major network transactors (likely scenario at this point in time - two hi volume exchanges) then could there be any cross-referencing done in which some of those terminations could be revealed?

This would be no different than the case of one actor with the combined total. Slightly safer in fact, since they would at least need to collude, which is plausible but not guaranteed.

Quote
There was another thing that I was wondering: If ~100% of the coins that are mined go directly from pool to exchange, and then onto the rest of their life, can that cause a long-lasting effect on anything? I understand that this is not the case currently where all mined coins go to one address, but if mining were to become strictly a business where mostly nothing (<1%) is held, and 99-100% of coins always originated from <10 addresses (pools) to be used by a group of 10,000 people, as opposed to a very small network of 10,000 people who are just solo-mining and using the coins, then which network would have greater cryptographic anonymity using cryptonote?

The advantage of solo mining is that you get coins with no history whatsoever. So in that sense the latter network would be preferable, all else being equal. Other than that, being a participant in the history of coins conveys no advantage, since tracing will fail after a small number of mixed transactions.

(Nice Socratic method BTW. A welcome change from the usual confrontational approach seen here so often.)
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Activity: 350
October 10, 2014, 07:08:29 AM
The addresses is a non-issue. There is no connection between different transactions just because they have the same public address (unlinkability).

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding or asking the question wrong. I was trying to ask if one could use their private key to identify an output of theirs as a mixin in a different transation. So, if an exchange were to begin using mixins, then their ability to identify they one of their outputs was used in someone else's ring would increase proportionally to the volume they handled?

The issue of someone controlling a huge share of transactions is a real one, and amounts to a form of sybil attack on traceability. Some transactions will become traceable in this manner but transactions with high mixes or multiple hops become effectively untraceable even by someone owning 90% or more of the outputs due to the exponential function.

Oh I see, maybe. So, if a typical user were to use a mixin of ten, then their chances of having someone with 90% of the transactions identify one of them would be .9^10, or 34.8% of being de-anonymized? I think there's also the denominations to deal with as well, so let's say for this example that all transactions ever done were just '10'?

Also, just as a matter of general privacy, exchange transactions are easily identifiable since they have a payment ID, and many people don't change their payment ID very often, so you can find all their transactions that way. Given this, we can tell that the number of exchange transactions is high but not extremely high. There are still a lot of mining transactions, pool payouts, and other incidental stuff (donations, MEW memberships, private trades, people moving between their own wallets, etc.)

Is this why you initially advocated for the txid field to be removed completely? If the field was filled and encrypted on a protocol standard with random data when not in use, then would nobody know but one party (here, exchange) how much of the transactions were theirs? So, if someone were trying to mount a sybil attack on mixins, nobody would ever see it coming? Would removing it prevent the ability of an exchange or anyone to be able to know that a transaction was theirs? Maybe there's more to this? Would the best case to be to encourage the widespread random usage of the txid field then?


As a second practical matter, I don't think (most?) exchange transactions today even use mixing, so even the sybil attack doesn't apply. That could change the future, although one would hope that there would also be other uses besides sending coins to an exchange constantly, otherwise who even cares.

Me! Regardless of the eventual level of penetration into society these coins get, pretty much every aspect of them is still fascinating on a technical level Cheesy

Finally it is important to remember that unlinkability (stealth) and untracabilty (mixing) work together to frustrate blockchain analysis. Even when you can partially overcome one, the other often makes the results useless. So for example, if you can defeat untracability on some tranasctions, you just get links between anonymous one-time keypairs that don't identify a person or link with other payments to or from that same person. Conversely if you can link some keypairs together, you can construct an "identify" (still not necessarily linked to a person) but you can't see flow of funds to or from that identify without also defeating untraceability. You really have to defeat both simultaneously on the same set of transactions to get anything useful, and that is much harder.

Right, so you can have the framework built up of transactions linked by one address, but still not have a clue where the terminations are because stealth addressing. Really, all you can do is prove that you were the majority transactor on the network, which you'd likely already know. So, if there were two major major network transactors (likely scenario at this point in time - two hi volume exchanges) then could there be any cross-referencing done in which some of those terminations could be revealed? Let's say cryptsy picks up xmr, and matches plx in volume and that's all that really changes in the next couple of months. Can the exchanges collude to identify users within a high probability on one exchange as users of the other exchange? I realize this can obviously be done without the blockchain, but I'm trying to learn so if anyone's under the impression that I think this would ever happen then I'm sorry but I don't mean it as it's just the easiest thing I can use to identify and understand how this works.



There was another thing that I was wondering: If ~100% of the coins that are mined go directly from pool to exchange, and then onto the rest of their life, can that cause a long-lasting effect on anything? I understand that this is not the case currently where all mined coins go to one address, but if mining were to become strictly a business where mostly nothing (<1%) is held, and 99-100% of coins always originated from <10 addresses (pools) to be used by a group of 10,000 people, as opposed to a very small network of 10,000 people who are just solo-mining and using the coins, then which network would have greater cryptographic anonymity using cryptonote?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 10, 2014, 06:12:39 AM
The addresses is a non-issue. There is no connection between different transactions just because they have the same public address (unlinkability).

The issue of someone controlling a huge share of transactions is a real one, and amounts to a form of sybil attack on traceability. Some transactions will become traceable in this manner but transactions with high mixes or multiple hops become effectively untraceable even by someone owning 90% or more of the outputs due to the exponential function.

Also, just as a matter of general privacy, exchange transactions are easily identifiable since they have a payment ID, and many people don't change their payment ID very often, so you can find all their transactions that way. Given this, we can tell that the number of exchange transactions is high but not extremely high. There are still a lot of mining transactions, pool payouts, and other incidental stuff (donations, MEW memberships, private trades, people moving between their own wallets, etc.)

As a second practical matter, I don't think (most?) exchange transactions today even use mixing, so even the sybil attack doesn't apply. That could change the future, although one would hope that there would also be other uses besides sending coins to an exchange constantly, otherwise who even cares.

Finally it is important to remember that unlinkability (stealth) and untracabilty (mixing) work together to frustrate blockchain analysis. Even when you can partially overcome one, the other often makes the results useless. So for example, if you can defeat untracability on some tranasctions, you just get links between anonymous one-time keypairs that don't identify a person or link with other payments to or from that same person. Conversely if you can link some keypairs together, you can construct an "identify" (still not necessarily linked to a person) but you can't see the flow of funds to or from that identify without also defeating untraceability. You really have to defeat both simultaneously on the same set of transactions to get anything useful, and that is much harder.

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Activity: 350
October 10, 2014, 05:21:41 AM
Assuming you are talking about Poloniex, each new deposit of a customer is a new XMR address. And if I am not mistaken there is change address for each succession of withdrawals from users meaning the coins are never always sent from the same XMR address.

Did I miss something here concerning your thoughts?

I was under the impression that the exchange address for plx was the same for everyone, and it was a different txid field that they gave to each person. I'm going off of memory here from when I made a second account there, and I remember the address being the same as on my other account, and only the txid field changed. I could be wrong, but I'll go make some more accounts there now to look.

Maybe, in a sense, when withdrawing from plx to you the address is different becase of stealth addressing, but would having the same private key for that stealth address still have an effect on benefit in the addressing/rs's if the tx came out of that address for one tx, and was sent then to one more address (say someone bought something), and then the money goes right back to the exchange address?

I was just wondering if there was a way to account for that (statistically? some other way?) when looking at the blockchain, and if there were any large resulting effects that could be mediated with having an actual different address rather than just a different txid?

So, if I were poloniex, what mechanism prevents me from looking at the blockchain composed of mostly transactions with me and saying 'that's my mixin' or 'that's not my mixin', at some point in the future?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 10, 2014, 05:15:27 AM
I received the above PM from "The Fascist" aka "Anonymint". It seems as if he has also found an exploit.

I have no interest in buying any exploit or any interest in attacking Monero. I am neither for or against the coin.

I do however see a serious flaw inherent to all CN coins with Monero being the focal point.

With this exploit expanding into the wild, holding any sum of funds in XMR you cannot lose is foolish.

I can absolutely guarantee you as soon as this exploit is successfully deployed, every single exchange will halt trading
and there will a lot of people holding coins they cannot trade anywhere.

As Anonymint also indicated, this is indeed a coin killer.


~BCX~

Could there be a major flaw in how these currencies are being used right now? I can imagine a highly likely scenario where surely >50%, and probably much closer to 90% of all the xmr coins ever emitted currently have have moved through one single address?

Additionally, could the percentage of mined coins directly to that exchange address have a strong effect on anything?

Will having likely 90% of all coins ever currently minted using xmr as example, which is 21.37% of all coins that will exist currently routed through a single address, occasionally branching off for one or two transactions before going right back to that address bode well for the cryptographic anonymity provided by ring signatures?


Assuming you are talking about Poloniex, each new deposit of a customer is a new XMR address. And if I am not mistaken there is change address for each succession of withdrawals from users meaning the coins are never always sent from the same XMR address.

Did I miss something here concerning your thoughts?

Yes and no. There is a button to change payment ID but I think they go to the same address. However, on the blockchain they go to different addresses because stealth addresses are always one-time.

legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 10, 2014, 05:05:55 AM
I received the above PM from "The Fascist" aka "Anonymint". It seems as if he has also found an exploit.

I have no interest in buying any exploit or any interest in attacking Monero. I am neither for or against the coin.

I do however see a serious flaw inherent to all CN coins with Monero being the focal point.

With this exploit expanding into the wild, holding any sum of funds in XMR you cannot lose is foolish.

I can absolutely guarantee you as soon as this exploit is successfully deployed, every single exchange will halt trading
and there will a lot of people holding coins they cannot trade anywhere.

As Anonymint also indicated, this is indeed a coin killer.


~BCX~

Could there be a major flaw in how these currencies are being used right now? I can imagine a highly likely scenario where surely >50%, and probably much closer to 90% of all the xmr coins ever emitted currently have have moved through one single address?

Additionally, could the percentage of mined coins directly to that exchange address have a strong effect on anything?

Will having likely 90% of all coins ever currently minted using xmr as example, which is 21.37% of all coins that will exist currently routed through a single address, occasionally branching off for one or two transactions before going right back to that address bode well for the cryptographic anonymity provided by ring signatures?


Assuming you are talking about Poloniex, each new deposit of a customer is a new XMR address. And if I am not mistaken there is change address for each succession of withdrawals from users meaning the coins are never always sent from the same XMR address.

Did I miss something here concerning your thoughts?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Activity: 350
October 10, 2014, 04:28:47 AM
I received the above PM from "The Fascist" aka "Anonymint". It seems as if he has also found an exploit.

I have no interest in buying any exploit or any interest in attacking Monero. I am neither for or against the coin.

I do however see a serious flaw inherent to all CN coins with Monero being the focal point.

With this exploit expanding into the wild, holding any sum of funds in XMR you cannot lose is foolish.

I can absolutely guarantee you as soon as this exploit is successfully deployed, every single exchange will halt trading
and there will a lot of people holding coins they cannot trade anywhere.

As Anonymint also indicated, this is indeed a coin killer.


~BCX~

Could there be a major flaw in how these currencies are being used right now? I can imagine a highly likely scenario where surely >50%, and probably much closer to 90% of all the xmr coins ever emitted currently have have moved through one single address?

Additionally, could the percentage of mined coins directly to that exchange address have a strong effect on anything?

Will having likely 90% of all coins ever currently minted using xmr as example, which is 21.37% of all coins that will exist currently routed through a single address, occasionally branching off for one or two transactions before going right back to that address bode well for the cryptographic anonymity provided by ring signatures?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
October 10, 2014, 12:45:38 AM
Has anybody tried making a whitepaper full of technical nonsense and running an IPO/ICO?  Seems like somebody could make money doing it!

http://www.jl777.org/darkpaper-teleport-revealed/ ?

Bwah-haha-haha1!!!  Well playerd, sir.   Grin

Omitted question mark now inserted.

If verified, no one (including the proprietor) is quite sure if it was intentional or not. Personally I lean to the latter, but bear in mind my right statesticle is ostensibly more colossal than the former.


You've done an excellent job of deconstructing

Didn't have time to read all his posts. Could you kindly point me to the analysis with scholarly proofs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Exquisite substantiation.

unicorntesticles

Unarguably and provably superior.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
October 09, 2014, 09:37:24 PM
Has anybody tried making a whitepaper full of technical nonsense and running an IPO/ICO?  Seems like somebody could make money doing it!

http://www.jl777.org/darkpaper-teleport-revealed/

Bwah-haha-haha1!!!  Well player, sir.   Grin


You've done an excellent job of deconstructing

Didn't have time to read all his posts. Could you kindly point me to the analysis with scholarly proofs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

anonymint, your username inspired me to register unicorntesticles.  I feel I have the most awesome domain on the net now.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
October 09, 2014, 09:14:15 PM
Has anybody tried making a whitepaper full of technical nonsense and running an IPO/ICO?  Seems like somebody could make money doing it!

http://www.jl777.org/darkpaper-teleport-revealed/

Bwah-haha-haha1!!!  Well player, sir.   Grin


You've done an excellent job of deconstructing

Didn't have time to read all his posts. Could you kindly point me to the analysis with scholarly proofs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
October 09, 2014, 06:52:58 PM
Because of Bluemeanie1's  (Moneroman88) involvement in Monero, I am pulling out.  I thought the Monero community had higher standards than to associate with thieves.

Thieves like to associate with Monero community, not the other way round.

Irony = Palpable.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
October 09, 2014, 06:26:18 PM
Has anybody tried making a whitepaper full of technical nonsense and running an IPO/ICO?  Seems like somebody could make money doing it!

http://www.jl777.org/darkpaper-teleport-revealed/

Moneroman88 is not involved in monero in any way. The only thing he does is pro-monero trolling

in·volve
inˈvälv/
verb

        cause (a person or group) to experience or participate in an activity or situation.

Thieves like to associate with Monero community, not the other way round.

Statements that have an infinite cost of future veracity are spoken by fools.

You've done an excellent job of deconstructing

Didn't have time to read all his posts. Could you kindly point me to the analysis with scholarly proofs?
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 2842
Shitcoin Minimalist
October 09, 2014, 08:57:28 AM
do you own the annoymint account   Cheesy

Stop forcing me unscramble my password with a quantum computer from the future just to respond to such provocations.

VaporCoin shunts possibly incriminating information from the user/application level outer blockchain to an inner temporary hybrid account tree which uses a middle data layer facilitated by a miniblockchain account tree combined with an innermost Cryptonote transport layer.  Thus only clean data is preserved in the outer chain while the noisy cleansing process is restricted to temporary mechanisms.

To be clear: RingShuffle = {SUPERnet hype layer [(CN application layer (MBC data layer|CN transport layer))]}.


Now I must go degrade my already precarious health by eating a dozen rotten duck fetuses, so I can further my Munchhausen syndrome driven attention whoring with more illnesses to publicly complain about.

LOOK AT ME!!!!


LOOK AT ME!!!!


LOOK AT ME!!!!


You've done an excellent job of deconstructing TFM/anonymint in your last several posts. And it's been hilarious!
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
October 09, 2014, 07:03:23 AM
Because of Bluemeanie1's  (Moneroman88) involvement in Monero, I am pulling out.  I thought the Monero community had higher standards than to associate with thieves.

Thieves like to associate with Monero community, not the other way round.

I thought that Moneroman88 hated Monero?  Every single thing he writes seems crafted explicitly for the purpose of creating hate for Monero.  
I also think TaunSew is just trolling here.  Few are gullible enough to take Moneroman88 seriously at all, much less take any action based on anything Moneroman88 writes.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
October 09, 2014, 04:58:25 AM
Because of Bluemeanie1's  (Moneroman88) involvement in Monero, I am pulling out.  I thought the Monero community had higher standards than to associate with thieves.

Thieves like to associate with Monero community, not the other way round.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
October 09, 2014, 03:58:23 AM
I do wonder why no extremely capable developer has offered to work with me, because my designs and maths go far beyond what I've shared in public).

Probably because: 1. everyone is likely either working on their own projects, or involved with a project already. 2. developer funding in this community (of any developer who doesn't work on an IPO coin) is in a state of crisis and I doubt many people would have the luxury of devoting months of their time to working on a speculative project.

Actually, the contrast between these IPO coins(note I'm not referring to superNET here as that's an asset backed by the money it raised and not a currency) and the non-IPO coins is quite striking. On one hand we have the IPO group each raising hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars every time, and then we have the other group who can't pay a single developer a Mcdonalds wage to work full time on projects that are attempting to change the world. Maybe we're the ones who got it wrong?

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141
October 09, 2014, 03:27:17 AM
Because of Bluemeanie1's  (Moneroman88) involvement in Monero, I am pulling out.  I thought the Monero community had higher standards than to associate with thieves.


Moneroman88 is not involved in monero in any way. The only thing he does is pro-monero trolling and most of the (monero) community hate him for that. You should really review your stance.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
October 09, 2014, 12:59:52 AM
Because of Bluemeanie1's  (Moneroman88) involvement in Monero, I am pulling out.  I thought the Monero community had higher standards than to associate with thieves.

Because of the lunar eclipse tomorrow night I'm switching projects from Monero to Darknote. Please join my new project on our official thread.


jeezuz christ after all the spamming and never ending god damn drama your switching projects ? AHHAHHAHAH

oh and thanks for the heads up about the eclipse thing Smiley

and good luck with your project guy Wink

Did i just read this?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 502
October 09, 2014, 12:42:30 AM
AAnonymincedmeat
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008
October 09, 2014, 12:40:26 AM
RingShuffle

Don't give them ideas, didn't we had enough with IPO/ICO scams? Sad

VaporCoin [ANN] coming SoonTM.  Now with 50% more Bogons!

I would very much like to be a part of this.  Please tell be how I can be.  Thank you.


Fully anonymous, your identity turns into vapor and mixes with other identities.®

We are one.®

Be one with VaporCoin.®
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