Discussion between SolidCoin Founder and Gavin Andresen

mizerydearia

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Let the cherrypicking begin:

Quote

<@RealSolid> gavinandresen: no not you but your other developers

"your" other developers? gavinandresen has slaves? O_O

Quote

<@RealSolid> gavinandresen: the SC network was attacked by one of your supporters/developers

Again, "your?" Is bitcoin something that belongs to gavinandresen? Even if gavinandresen is satoshi, the idea behind bitcoin (which is reimplemented in solidcoin) is just that, an idea, and it is widely recognized acceptably and therefore several human existences help to distribute, propagate and participate with the idea. I don't think the idea belongs to any one individual even though there are human individuals behind the efforts related to continue developing and producing the idea more effortfully.

We're all individuals and generally want to help one another. Hint: open source

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLci5DoZqHU

BitcoinPorn

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Just out of curiosity, how possible or probable would this error have occurred naturally? Or, do you all feel this might have just been found out by another user, and possibly not told to CoinHunter at all?

I will agree to disagree with you all on the issues regarding breaking other peoples programming for the sake of breaking it, as I know that isn't fully the reason, there was malicious intent as well and that sucks, but whatever.

coblee

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Quote from: johnj on September 06, 2011, 05:06:11 PM

Quote from: BitcoinPorn on September 06, 2011, 04:53:01 PM

Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:40:42 PM

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art. I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides. Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

Or the alternative:

Art: Hey, here is an exploit, you should fix it
CH: Screw you fella!
***exploit remains active***
UNKNOWN: -attacks the chain even harder, causing a BIGGER issue-.

Um, exactly. Here's an easy attack:
- Fork SolidCoin and modify code to ignore huge transactions and to perform the mining cartel attack.
- Put 60 GHash on mining SolidCoin using your modded code.
- Create thousands of these huge transactions in secret and release them at the same time.
- This will crash every single node due to out of memory issue. And if the nodes don't crash, they will be extremely slow to process blocks and transactions.
- Your 60 GHash will likely have 51% of the total mining power.
- While everyone else is picking up pieces, you are happily performing the mining cartel attack and raping solidcoin for its easy block rewards.

ArtForz is smart enough and has the resources to pull this off. Yet he didn't. He just released 71 transactions one at a time.

So yes, I think ArtForz did the right thing to bring this problem to the surface because CH/RS is too stupid to realize it's a problem and too full of himself to listen to others.

ArtForz

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A *bad* version of the attack could have looked like this:
Create one 1-input 10000-output transaction splitting 100.01 SC into 10000 * 0.01 SC + 0.01 fee (one output is ~35B, so only about 350kB or so). Submit it to other nodes and wait for it to get included into the chain.
While offline, create 10000 1-input 10000-output transactions, each spending one of those 0.01 and splitting it into 10000*0.00 + 0.01 fee (yes, that would have been a valid transaction!), collect all of them with a half-a-node or similar.
Inject those 10000 transactions (~350kB each) into the network at multiple points from machines with decent pipes (again, not too hard to do using half-a-node as a base).
Sit back and watch the show as nodes on the network try to cache and propagate 3.5GB of transactions.

coblee

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Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.

Quote from: BitcoinPorn on September 06, 2011, 04:53:01 PM

Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:40:42 PM

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art. I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides. Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

Now tell me how he "fucked over other people". It slowed down node processing of blocks. It wasn't even that slow. I remember CH/RS even boasted (don't remember forum or IRC) that even with this slow down, solidcoin is still confirming much faster than bitcoins. Sure, it crashed a few nodes due to the unintended transaction log growth. But this problem was quickly worked around by deleting the log files. All ArtForz did was to prove his point. Remember, his action did not cause the price of solidcoin to plummet. The price of solidcoin plummeted because CH/RS made a dick move to change the open source license. That was what "fucked over other people".

So ArtForz got shit on by CH/RS, and he performed a small attack to prove his point. Then CH/RS retaliated and pissed off everyone. I think what I heard recently on IRC summed this up perfectly: "don't piss on the heads of the giants whose shoulders you stand on"

johnj

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Quote from: BitcoinPorn on September 06, 2011, 04:53:01 PM

Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:40:42 PM

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art. I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides. Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

Or the alternative:

Art: Hey, here is an exploit, you should fix it
CH: Screw you fella!
***exploit remains active***
UNKNOWN: -attacks the chain even harder, causing a BIGGER issue-.

BitcoinPorn

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Quote from: smoothie on September 06, 2011, 05:01:40 PM

It's a new day. Get over the past and move on.

Pot kettle black etc

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: BitcoinPorn on September 06, 2011, 04:53:01 PM

Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:40:42 PM

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art. I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides. Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

It's a new day. Get over the past and move on.

Thanks!

BitcoinPorn

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Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:40:42 PM

Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place.

That is such a shit argument for defending Art. I think it is safe to say that there are just two wrongs that have been made and so people don't have to pick sides. Art got shit on by CoinHunter, and instead of being a bigger person went on and fucked over other people based on one persons actions.

ArtForz

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 257

Quote from: ?? on ??

What weakness did he actually claim to find? On the public forum it alluded to 51% attacks not micro-transaction DDOSing... How much time between even making that claim and making that attack (less than a day from what I recall)? Am I wrong?

"Your rules allow anyone to send transactions up to nearly BLOCK_SIZE_GEN for 0.01 coins" pretty much sums it up.
There was no microtransactions DDoS or anything the like.
One node. Sending 71 transactions with 350~430kB each over the span of 17 hours..
Take a look yourself: http://john-edwin-tobey.org/scbig.txt
They're in Blocks 28351 to 28481 in case you didn't notice.

coblee

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Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: wolftaur on September 06, 2011, 04:13:44 PM

Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:11:31 PM

So what is the whole story? Please do tell. And please be specific about who you are talking about, because to me "King Douche Bag" is synonymous with CoinHunter.

The whole story is ArtForz found weaknesses, CoinHunter ignored them, I actually went to CoinHunter privately and asked if he'd like me to help him go over them to see if it was a real problem and what the solutions might be, he flipped out on me, I walked off and laughed my ass off when ArtForz decided to prove the attack was real when CoinHunter was trying to pretend it was just "bitcoin attacking solidcoin", which of course he was paranoid about since he'd spread a bunch of lies about bitcoin when he released solidcoin.

What weakness did he actually claim to find? On the public forum it alluded to 51% attacks not micro-transaction DDOSing... How much time between even making that claim and making that attack (less than a day from what I recall)? Am I wrong?

It doesn't matter how much time was between the claim and the attack. If CoinHunter had listened and worked with ArtForz, ArtForz would likely not have attacked the chain to prove the issue. And they could have taken weeks to put in a real fix that actually works.

On the forum, I think only the 51% attack was posted. He discussed the DDoS attack on the i0coin chatroom. Only ArtForz and CoinHunter know what exactly they discussed in private. But ArtForz said that he brought up the vulnerabilities to CoinHunter and was ignored. Given CoinHunter's egotistical behavior on the forums and on IRC, I can't fault ArtForz for attacking SolidCoin to try to put CoinHunter in his place. He's really too full of himself. Can's argue with that, right?

wolftaur

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Quote from: coblee on September 06, 2011, 04:11:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: wolftaur on September 06, 2011, 02:56:09 PM

ArtForz actually tried that and got nowhere.

Even if you were telling the 100% truth, King Douche Bag still shouldn't have done what he did.... the additional problem is you're not telling the whole story, you're cherry picking a piece of the story to fit your agenda.

So what is the whole story? Please do tell. And please be specific about who you are talking about, because to me "King Douche Bag" is synonymous with CoinHunter.

The whole story is ArtForz found weaknesses, CoinHunter ignored them, I actually went to CoinHunter privately and asked if he'd like me to help him go over them to see if it was a real problem and what the solutions might be, he flipped out on me, I walked off and laughed my ass off when ArtForz decided to prove the attack was real when CoinHunter was trying to pretend it was just "bitcoin attacking solidcoin", which of course he was paranoid about since he'd spread a bunch of lies about bitcoin when he released solidcoin.

coblee

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: wolftaur on September 06, 2011, 02:56:09 PM

Quote from: nguoinhaque on September 06, 2011, 01:22:27 PM

I agree that CoinHunter's behavior is immature and not professional (I guess his age is under 25 and very likely under 20) but I don't suppose ArtForz is a good guy. If CoinHunter didn't admit SolidCoin's weekness, ArtForz should post his argument here to show how stupid and arrogant CoinHunter is instead of attacking SolidCoin.

ArtForz actually tried that and got nowhere.

Even if you were telling the 100% truth, King Douche Bag still shouldn't have done what he did.... the additional problem is you're not telling the whole story, you're cherry picking a piece of the story to fit your agenda.

So what is the whole story? Please do tell. And please be specific about who you are talking about, because to me "King Douche Bag" is synonymous with CoinHunter.

wolftaur

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Quote from: Zibbo on September 06, 2011, 02:57:27 PM

Quote from: CoinHunter on September 05, 2011, 10:40:01 PM

but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene".

Heh, I can imagine this pissed you off. Here you are waging your little war on Bitcoin, thinking you are the center of the universe. It must have been hard to notice that Solidcoin had not even registered on Gavins radar.

His ego has collapsed in on itself to form a neural singularity. Fact slows down as it approaches him, and intelligence is trapped in the insanity well and cannot escape.

wolftaur

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Quote from: ArtForz on September 06, 2011, 02:32:45 PM

"I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people."
Right. He had already fixed it. So *thats* why it took him THREE releases to get his half-assed "fix" right and the current release still happily creates 6.8GB of temporary txdb journal bloat while downloading the chain.
*facepalm*

Actually, this is beyond facepalm territory. We're up to *headdesk* by now.

Zibbo

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Quote from: CoinHunter on September 05, 2011, 10:40:01 PM

but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene".

Heh, I can imagine this pissed you off. Here you are waging your little war on Bitcoin, thinking you are the center of the universe. It must have been hard to notice that Solidcoin had not even registered on Gavins radar.

wolftaur

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Quote from: nguoinhaque on September 06, 2011, 01:22:27 PM

I agree that CoinHunter's behavior is immature and not professional (I guess his age is under 25 and very likely under 20) but I don't suppose ArtForz is a good guy. If CoinHunter didn't admit SolidCoin's weekness, ArtForz should post his argument here to show how stupid and arrogant CoinHunter is instead of attacking SolidCoin.

ArtForz actually tried that and got nowhere.

coblee

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Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.

Quote from: CoinHunter on September 05, 2011, 10:40:01 PM

... but I do feel the lead developer of Bitcoin shouldn't be ignorant about what is going on in his own "scene".

Gavin is busy actually working on Bitcoin development. Count how many threads there are about SolidCoin on the forum. Do you really expect Gavin to have the time to read all that? He probably just heard from someone that you found some bugs in Bitcoin but are not willing to share the fix upstream. So he just logged in to your IRC chatroom to ask you why. Why does have to know all the history of your coin?

You treat him like an ass and call him a hacker supporter. There's really no room in the bitcoin "scene" for your immature childish behavior. See ya and good luck with your closed source dying fork.

cgpgroup

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Quote from: ArtForz on September 06, 2011, 02:32:45 PM

"I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people."
Right. He had already fixed it. So *thats* why it took him THREE releases to get his half-assed "fix" right and the current release still happily creates 6.8GB of temporary txdb journal bloat while downloading the chain.
*facepalm*

LOL more like *plank to back of head*

ArtForz

sr. member

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"I had already fixed the issues which artforz was taking advantage of to disrupt service to thousands of people."
Right. He had already fixed it. So *thats* why it took him THREE releases to get his half-assed "fix" right and the current release still happily creates 6.8GB of temporary txdb journal bloat while downloading the chain.
*facepalm*

Topic: Discussion between SolidCoin Founder and Gavin Andresen (Read 6440 times)