Do you think Bitcoin should modify to POW + POS ? █████ Poll █████ - page 6.

Daedelus

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Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 12:11:38 PM

Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 12:10:13 PM

But you would prove they are insecure. That would be worth much more.

no... if i would knew a way i would way until the liquidity is high enough to enable me cashout an high enough amount

If you destroy the POS idea, money is likely to flow into back to bitcoin as they all die, no?

Daedelus

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on January 06, 2015, 12:10:21 PM

Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 12:06:34 PM

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

Yes, opinions from security analysis and experts which is based upon reason , logic and evidence. These experts create models and run mathematical simulations to test their hypothesis.. but i guess to you one opinion is as good as anothers.

Where are the models?

I posted the POS models that back those papers above. You can repeat and verify the results, if you were so inclined.

onemorebtc

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Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 12:10:13 PM

But you would prove they are insecure. That would be worth much more.

no... if i would knew a way i would wait until the liquidity is high enough to enable me cashout an high enough amount.

...most thieves cannot cashout immeditaly. they have to wait (maybe with a pos annon coin this will change, dont know if there is one)

edit: changed on word and added last sentence

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 12:06:34 PM

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

Yes, opinions from security analysis and experts which is based upon reason , logic and evidence. These experts create models and run mathematical simulations to test their hypothesis.. but i guess to you one opinion is as good as anothers.

Daedelus

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Quote from: Flashman on January 06, 2015, 12:09:20 PM

Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 12:02:58 PM

if a pos system runs a few years with the same marketcap as btc i might change my mind.

That is my big reservation, that the market for current PoS coins is so thin and fragile that any serious attempt at attacking them would leave you owning a bunch of nothing, so why bother? It's like trying to steal paper money by burning the bank down.

But you would prove they are insecure. That would be worth much more.

Flashman

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Hodl!

Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 12:02:58 PM

if a pos system runs a few years with the same marketcap as btc i might change my mind.

That is my big reservation, that the market for current PoS coins is so thin and fragile that any serious attempt at attacking them would leave you owning a bunch of nothing, so why bother? It's like trying to steal paper money by burning the bank down.

Daedelus

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on January 06, 2015, 12:02:31 PM

Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 11:59:54 AM

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

There is good evidence to support both security models as evidenced through testing and research analysis. We don't have enough data to make conclusive statments at this time. Anyone that is suggesting that PoS/DPoS is more secure than Bitcoins PoW is making an assumption and ignoring any countering evidence.

https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document

These are opinion. Don't forget: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Jonald and another said/think POS isn't secure. I have made no comment on POW. Where is the proof POS is insecure that isn't argument from authority or strong belief?

onemorebtc

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Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 11:59:54 AM

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

add tested...
if a pos system runs a few years with the same marketcap as btc i might change my mind.

but yes it boils down to strong believe and authority. but the same is true for pos Wink

(its a little more than strong believe as i studied sha256 myself and mined by hand to be sure - thats what i meant with its easy to understand)

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 11:59:54 AM

So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

There is good evidence to support both security models as evidenced through testing and research analysis. We don't have enough data to make conclusive statments at this time. Anyone that is suggesting that PoS/DPoS is more secure than Bitcoins PoW is making an assumption and ignoring any countering evidence.

https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document

Flashman

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Hodl!

Quote from: kokojie on January 06, 2015, 11:52:46 AM

Wait what? proven broken vs not broken yet, is not an argument for security? So you will choose the proven broken, vs the not yet broken? You will choose an already cracked ecryption algo, over AES-256?

So now you say your leg is proven broken, you think the rot has set in, it could be gangrenous and you're worrying about the leech on it instead of cutting the damn thing off already?

Daedelus

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So we have arguments from authority and strong beliefs.

Daedelus

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or some research papers like:

Nxt forging algorithm: simulating approach (Oct 2014)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/243341106/nxtforging-1 (scroll down to read)

PoS forging algorithms: formal approach and multibranch forging (Nov 2014)
https://nxtforum.org/consensus-research/multibranch-forging-approach/
(https://www.scribd.com/doc/248208963/Multibranch-forging)

PoS forging algorithms: multi-strategy forging and related security issues (Dec 2014)
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch/articles-papers/blob/master/multistrategy/multistrategy.pdf

Simulation Tools for Forging Algorithms
https://github.com/ConsensusResearch/

onemorebtc

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Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 11:52:07 AM

Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 11:47:22 AM

i just dont think any pos system offers the same security as pow does.

What makes you think this?

1) security experts telling this (yes, i know there are people knowing more than me)

2) it sounds unreasonable to make a system that could secure itself.

3) its not proven. the principles btc is build upon are old and well studied. its easy to understand the security implications. thats not the case with pos

4) i strongly believe in the argument that you need an external pysical property (like time with btc) to prove consensus

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: Daedelus on January 06, 2015, 11:52:07 AM

Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 11:47:22 AM

i just dont think any pos system offers the same security as pow does.

What makes you think this?

This has been discussed Ad Naseum... start with Vitalik's multiple articles before he settled upon PoW for ethereum:

https://blog.ethereum.org/

or some research papers like:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00945053/document

onemorebtc

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on January 06, 2015, 11:51:43 AM

We are taking about changing the consensus mechanism from PoW to PoS/DPoS ... of coarse only the devs can accomplish this. We are talking about code here. If you read my statement non-developers can only indirectly influence devs.

the point is *ANY* dev can do this change. thats the beauty for oss... it doesnt matter if its gavin or your friend peter

the question is whom the users will follow...

i would just sell my pos bitcoin for real ones Wink

kokojie

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Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 11:51:25 AM

Quote from: kokojie on January 06, 2015, 11:48:48 AM

Just the opposite, PoW is really lacking in security, PoS offers hundreds time better security. PoW altcoins are a joke to attack and kill. No PoS altcoin has fallen to attacks yet.

your opinion

and "it hasnt been broken yet" is not an acceptable argument for security

Wait what? proven broken vs not broken yet, is not an argument for security? So you will choose the proven broken, vs the not yet broken? You will choose an already cracked ecryption algo, over AES-256?

Daedelus

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Quote from: onemorebtc on January 06, 2015, 11:47:22 AM

i just dont think any pos system offers the same security as pow does.

What makes you think this?

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on January 06, 2015, 11:47:35 AM

Quote from: inBitweTrust on January 06, 2015, 11:46:22 AM

Quote from: kokojie on January 06, 2015, 11:35:11 AM

Again, when there's a leech on my leg, I kill the leech, instead of cutting off my leg. So as a stakeholder of Bitcoin, I will try to kill the Bitcoin leech, instead off cutting off my Bitcoin stake.

2 points :

1) You seem incapable to empathize with the arguments from others that PoW offers different and possibly better security benefits than PoS/DPoS
2) Using your analogy you are indeed cutting off the leg or at least taking a chunk of meat out with your approach to changing Bitcoin

You appear to me as someone who doesn't have much experience working on open source projects where people voluntarily contribute code. Unless you are the project coordinator or cheif github maintainer that has been earned through years of contributions in code you have no place to be making the demands you are making.

If you truly want bitcoin to change consensus mechanisms than you either need to start contributing to the open source repo and interacting with devs in a positive way or indirectly by hiring or befriending the devs directly.

whining on a web forum is not going to produce results and may even be counter productive.

Don't be ridiculous, only developers can influence change in Bitcoin? All the non-coding Bitcoin community can just shut up then?

We are taking about changing the consensus mechanism from PoW to PoS/DPoS ... of course only the devs can accomplish this. We are talking about code here. If you read my statement non-developers can only indirectly influence devs.

onemorebtc

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Quote from: kokojie on January 06, 2015, 11:48:48 AM

Just the opposite, PoW is really lacking in security, PoS offers hundreds time better security. PoW altcoins are a joke to attack and kill. No PoS altcoin has fallen to attacks yet.

your opinion

and "it hasnt been broken yet" is not an acceptable argument for security

kokojie

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Quote from: Flashman on January 06, 2015, 11:48:10 AM

Quote from: kokojie on January 06, 2015, 11:45:27 AM

Of course it is, I owned Bitcoin since April 2011, it wouldn't be a drastic move to move my entire Bitcoin stake into an altcoin? don't be ridiculous. Pushing for change in Bitcoin is a much more sensible move for Bitcoin stakeholders. Though for you mining shill, moving to PoS it's a disaster of course, you can no longer leech value out of Bitcoin.

So your position is that PoS is proven, but not actually proven enough that YOUR money should be at risk?

No, it's more of a: Berlin has better subway system, I don't quit my job, uproot my family and move to Berlin, I influence change in my home town to have the same subway system. Got it?

Topic: Do you think Bitcoin should modify to POW + POS ? █████ Poll █████ - page 6. (Read 7535 times)