Early speculator's reward antidote - page 5.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:52:05 PM

Quote from: BitterTea on May 31, 2011, 12:45:01 PM

Quote from: markm on May 31, 2011, 12:42:46 PM

Just start a new blockchain with massive hashing power thrown at it right from the start so no-one can complain that it started off ridiculously easy.

Yes they can. The computing power necessary to secure the blockchain will always increase, thus at some arbitrary point in the future, the difficulty of currently generated coins will be "too low".

If the reward (50BTC) were not an arbitrary constant, but pegged logarithmically to the difficulty, that would even this disparity out some even more...a proposal I have suggested in the past and seemed relatively palatable (at least compared to the strong sentiment against "don't mess with our block chain")

The reward (per miner) is pegged linearly to the difficulty right now. Why would logarithmically be better?

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: BitterTea on May 31, 2011, 12:45:01 PM

Quote from: markm on May 31, 2011, 12:42:46 PM

Just start a new blockchain with massive hashing power thrown at it right from the start so no-one can complain that it started off ridiculously easy.

Yes they can. The computing power necessary to secure the blockchain will always increase, thus at some arbitrary point in the future, the difficulty of currently generated coins will be "too low".

If the reward (50BTC) were not an arbitrary constant, but pegged logarithmically to the difficulty, that would even this disparity out some even more...a proposal I have suggested in the past and seemed relatively palatable (at least compared to the strong sentiment against "don't mess with our block chain")

ene

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:30:15 PM

If my foresight is of value, then listen to this: Newcomers don't like it when others profit at their expense without giving value in return. They are going to leap from putting new funds into the BTC block chain at the first solid safe opportunity.

Since you aren't a newcomer, can you point to some of these people?

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: BitterTea on May 31, 2011, 12:46:29 PM

So what about the people who just entered into the Bitcoin economy and could only afford say, 1 BTC. It just so happens that they bought that bitcoin from someone who mined it early on. The difficulty for their coin is very low, and it will be worth much less in the BCP system. Is that what you consider fair?

They can continue to use it as a BTC with no preconditions, even with BTC+BCP client, as long as there are plenty of people who will accept it as a BTC which clearly many people vow there will be.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:44:13 PM

Quote from: rebuilder on May 31, 2011, 12:40:22 PM

So how much would a newly minted Bitcoin be worth to you, in older Bitcoin?

The comparative value would be pegged directly to the difficulty number in the block header where the original coinbase transaction is found (averaged where multiple coinbase transactions are combined). A logarithm factor would ensure that new coins weren't worth 433,000 times as much as older ones (that's not fair either), but they'd still be worth quite a bit more. And they should be - they were hundreds of times harder to create.

So what about the people who just entered into the Bitcoin economy and could only afford say, 1 BTC. It just so happens that they bought that bitcoin from someone who mined it early on. The difficulty for their coin is very low, and it will be worth much less in the BCP system. Is that what you consider fair?

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: markm on May 31, 2011, 12:42:46 PM

Just start a new blockchain with massive hashing power thrown at it right from the start so no-one can complain that it started off ridiculously easy.

Yes they can. The computing power necessary to secure the blockchain will always increase, thus at some arbitrary point in the future, the difficulty of currently generated coins will be "too low".

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: rebuilder on May 31, 2011, 12:40:22 PM

So how much would a newly minted Bitcoin be worth to you, in older Bitcoin?

The comparative value would be pegged directly to the difficulty number in the block header where the original coinbase transaction is found (averaged where multiple coinbase transactions are combined). A logarithm factor would ensure that new coins weren't worth 433,000 times as much as older ones (that's not fair either), but they'd still be worth quite a bit more. And they should be - they were hundreds of times harder to create.

markm

legendary

Activity: 2940

Merit: 1090

My landlord used to run around from bank to bank trading in all his CAD just to keep getting different bills he had not seen before, because some ranges of serial numbers, maybe with different pictures by different artists or whatever, sell for different above-face-value amounts on e-bay.

So Canadian notes are already not fungible I suppose, its just that only a few collectors and enthusiasts and maybe Archie comics' Jughead Jones bother to go to the trouble of cashing on in the deviation in value. (Jughead did it with small change.)

Don't bother with a new client, any good features can go in the normal client anyway and this using the old blockchain concept is silly pointless complexity to no good purpose.

Just start a new blockchain with massive hashing power thrown at it right from the start so no-one can complain that it started off ridiculously easy. Heck you could even make it so difficult that it takes on average much longer than ten minutes to make a block, aiming to move toward ten minutes only after quite some time has gone by to allow anyone to get aboard who wants to get aboard.

It would be nice to make several chains each addressing different complaints, since complainers seem mostly to be chronically unwilling to do so themselves.

-MarkM-

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: stic.man on May 31, 2011, 12:40:26 PM

use some of your coins to purchase items from the stores that actually accept them, that way you are distributing wealth and reinforcing their use as a currency, everyone wins!

I totally am. I sell, I buy things, I all of the above.

I've also helped people mine from the get-go, which I believe also strengthens the currency (by puttting it in more people's hands)

stic.man

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

use some of your coins to purchase items from the stores that actually accept them, that way you are distributing wealth and reinforcing their use as a currency, everyone wins!

rebuilder

legendary

Activity: 1615

Merit: 1000

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:33:54 PM

Quote from: BitterTea on May 31, 2011, 12:31:35 PM

Your foresight only has value if you are right. So why don't you provide proof that you destroyed all the rest of your BTC and deposited them into BCP?

I never will... I would be a fool to, because the difficulty (i.e. how easily I acquired my coins) would make them a poor conversion. Nobody will want to convert BTC unless they were recently mined and would yield a comparable sum of BCP. I however would throw all my mining at BCP as well as all recently mined coins. BCP of course doesn't "exist" yet until a client is released for it.

So how much would a newly minted Bitcoin be worth to you, in older Bitcoin?

kwukduck

legendary

Activity: 1937

Merit: 1001

Ah, so OP gained reasonable potential wealth by adopting an early experimental system, believing in it, investing in it, and so far it has 'paid off'...

Nothing wrong there, if you feel so bad about it, please tip me.

I really don't see why a certain group has so much problems with early adopters gaining wealth, they could have been there too if only they did more research or dared to invest or whatever.
It's an argument out of pure jealousy i'd say. (in your case im just completely missing the point...)

The features will come over time, remember bitcoin is still young and in development.

Cusipzzz

sr. member

Activity: 334

Merit: 250

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:27:39 PM

Quote from: markm on May 31, 2011, 12:11:57 PM

If coins are not fungible that is probably not a good thing, so this different values for different coins of the same blockchain doesn't sound like a good idea.

-MarkM-

Which is why I suspect that if a new, better, BTC+BCP client suddenly appeared on the market, that instantly reminded you of the BTC-to-BCP "convertibility value" of every coin in your wallet without actually doing a conversion, even the staunchest BTC purists would not be able to deny that BTC suddenly lost a shade of their fungibility, which would make BCP more attractive.

In fact, my very mention that I perceive that some BTC are better than others has already slightly diminished the fungibility of BTC in and of itself (including my coins, all of which are easy-to-medium difficulty ones)

Haha. No. Your delusions about some coins being better than others are your own. Nobody is going to modify the core client for this BCP scheme. Simply build your own pure BCP chain, with whatever distribution flavor you like, and if it has merit people will join you. Or just give your coins away and absolve your guilt.

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: BitterTea on May 31, 2011, 12:31:35 PM

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:30:15 PM

Quote from: stic.man on May 31, 2011, 12:24:07 PM

Having foresight is a perfectly reasonable attribute that is marketable. You should feel good for yourself about being able to recognize a good opportunity. If you cashed out right now I would not begrudge you your 6-figure payout (over time due to market size)

If my foresight is of value, then listen to this: Newcomers don't like it when others profit at their expense without giving value. They are going to leap from putting new funds into the BTC block chain at the first solid safe opportunity.

Your foresight only has value if you are right. So why don't you provide proof that you destroyed all the rest of your BTC and deposited them into BCP?

I never will... I would be a fool to, because the difficulty (i.e. how easily I acquired my coins) would make them a poor conversion. Nobody will want to convert BTC unless they were recently mined and would yield a comparable sum of BCP. I however would throw all my mining at BCP as well as all recently mined coins. BCP of course doesn't "exist" yet until a client is released for it.

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: BitterTea on May 31, 2011, 12:30:37 PM

If I value federal reserve notes printed in my state over all others, are federal reserve notes magically no longer as fungible?

How about a more relevant argument: if I value copper pennies over zinc ones, are zinc ones less fungible?

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:30:15 PM

Quote from: stic.man on May 31, 2011, 12:24:07 PM

Having foresight is a perfectly reasonable attribute that is marketable. You should feel good for yourself about being able to recognize a good opportunity. If you cashed out right now I would not begrudge you your 6-figure payout (over time due to market size)

If my foresight is of value, then listen to this: Newcomers don't like it when others profit at their expense without giving value. They are going to leap from putting new funds into the BTC block chain at the first solid safe opportunity.

Your foresight only has value if you are right. So why don't you provide proof that you destroyed all the rest of your BTC and deposited them into BCP?

stic.man

full member

Activity: 168

Merit: 100

You know considering the difficulty lay people have with the technology already this is not going to help things if you are interested in seeing bitcoin succeed as a currency. The WTF factor will keep going up exponentially at which point you'd not only be fucking over the early adopters but the retarded.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

If I value federal reserve notes printed in my state over all others, are federal reserve notes magically no longer as fungible?

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1140

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: stic.man on May 31, 2011, 12:24:07 PM

Having foresight is a perfectly reasonable attribute that is marketable. You should feel good for yourself about being able to recognize a good opportunity. If you cashed out right now I would not begrudge you your 6-figure payout (over time due to market size)

If my foresight is of value, then listen to this: Newcomers don't like it when others profit at their expense without giving value in return. They are going to leap from putting new funds into the BTC block chain at the first solid safe opportunity.

Don't get stuck on the notion that "nobody is getting taken, they are buying valuable BTC voluntarily". The value of BTC is only what someone else will give for it, which is always less when I and others are slowly tossing BTC at the market to the highest bidder.

charliesheen

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: casascius on May 31, 2011, 12:13:08 PM

Who knows - I don't know the "difficulty factor" of my 25,000 BTC. Presumably they're all less than whatever the difficulty was in February, so they wouldn't be worth much converted to BCP, which is exactly the point of the rules, to let newcomers keep more of the buying power of their money instead of letting fuckheads like me take it as profit.

I will willingly take all of your bitcoins and in exchange you will be absolved for the early speculation of the bitcoin economy.

Topic: Early speculator's reward antidote - page 5. (Read 22161 times)