Early speculator's reward antidote - page 9.

N12

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Please explain why your "antidote" would turn out any different in two years. The mining scheme internally stays the same in your proposal.

What you want is inflatacoin or freicoin imo.

Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:58:58 PM

The $50k would ultimately come from other investors in gold, in the form of a very small devaluation in everyone else's gold. TANSTAAFL, money does not come from nowhere.

I don’t understand the fundamental difference between Bitcoin and Gold in this regard. The only difference is a large and mature market.

casascius

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Quote from: N12 on May 30, 2011, 11:28:16 PM

If I would’ve put in 100k in gold when it was 1000$/oz and sold at 1500$, where would the 50k have come from? Absolutely no work required either.

The $50k would ultimately come from other investors in gold, in the form of a very small devaluation in everyone else's gold. TANSTAAFL, money does not come from nowhere. Although gold may be trading at $1500 an ounce, the market simply will not pay $1500 for every ounce of gold in existence if offered for sale. Each successful attempt to sell off gold results in a small decrease in the market value of everyone else's gold.

The difference between gold and Bitcoin is that many of us know that early miners hold over 2M BTC that haven't been spent out of their generation blocks, and that were acquired very trivially. It represents the right to confiscate a vast proportion of the entire Bitcoin economy on a whim... if BTC becomes a $100 billion economy, it's a license to take $billions in goods and services from the rest of us in exchange for absolutely nothing. Just who is that fair to?

casascius

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Quote from: amincd on May 30, 2011, 11:38:40 PM

You are entitled to take $200,000 because other people are willing to pay you that much for what you have. It's an exchange, and both sides benefit from it. If they didn't, then the exchange wouldn't happen. It's not at all like Bernanke who is able to maintain the dollar's value while inflating through the force of taxation and legal tender laws.

By that logic, all pyramid schemes are legal and ethical because each person parts with their money voluntarily.

casascius

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Quote from: Terpie on May 30, 2011, 11:24:05 PM

So if I value 20,000 BTC more than the $200,000 in my bank account, the holder of the BTC is confiscating my wealth when we make this voluntary trade? You can't be serious.

The moment you buy your BTC is not when the confiscation happens. If I have 1,000,000 BTC, and I toss it on the market, your 20,000 BTC suddenly is able to buy far less (in goods and services) than you expected. I get a good proportion of the goods and services you anticipated receiving in exchange for negligible work, and you get much closer to nothing.

Oh, but you'll say nobody with 1M BTC would be crazy and dump it on the market like that... they'd do it slowly, right? What difference does it make? It is still taking goods and services from an economy without putting anything back in. Taking something slowly in a manner that is less obvious to everyone is still taking!

By the way, I might have somewhere near 20,000 BTC I'm willing to sell near around mtgoxask. Got somewhere near $200k? Maybe let's trade.

stic.man

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this is turning into an ideology argument, there's a subforum for this

amincd

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Quote from: casascius

Of course you know Ben Bernanke will never just break into your kitchen and make himself a sandwich on your dime. The confiscation would be clear. But instead he prints money, and you sit and wonder why prices just went up. He confiscates half your sandwich next year by making it cost twice as much and then buying the other half on the free market and hopes you don't notice the difference.

I am the guy who made the YouTube videos who proudly declared that I bought $20k of BTC at 0.80 and now as a result, I am "entitled" to take $200k from other people as a result. Where did the $180k come from? Thin air? No, it came from the backs of others.

You are entitled to take $200,000 because other people are willing to pay you that much for what you have. It's an exchange, and both sides benefit from it. If they didn't, then the exchange wouldn't happen. It's not at all like Bernanke who is able to maintain the dollar's value while inflating through the force of taxation and legal tender laws.

N12

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:04:19 PM

I am the guy who made the YouTube videos who proudly declared that I bought $20k of BTC at 0.80 and now as a result, I am "entitled" to take $200k from other people as a result. Where did the $180k come from? Thin air? No, it came from the backs of others. While I think it's sweet that I can go buy a god damn Ferrari in exchange for absolutely no work, don't you see anything wrong with that? The root of an economy is goods and services, not money, but as a result of this disparity, I have been enabled to take something from an economy without putting anything back. That is the root of the problem others will seek to solve.

The only real solution would be a) fixed percentage inflation rate p.a. or b) central bank deciding inflation rate based on the economy. Your Bitcoin 2.0 would face the same "problem" soon enough.

If I would’ve put in 100k in gold when it was 1000$/oz and sold at 1500$, where would the 50k have come from? Absolutely no work required either.

Littleshop

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:04:19 PM

Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 10:55:57 PM

Confiscate? Do you understand the definitions of the words you are using?

Um, yeah, it means what you thought was yours, just became mine. Of course you know Ben Bernanke will never just break into your kitchen and make himself a sandwich on your dime. The confiscation would be clear. But instead he prints money, and you sit and wonder why prices just went up. He confiscates half your sandwich next year by making it cost twice as much and then buying the other half on the free market and hopes you don't notice the difference.

I am the guy who made the YouTube videos who proudly declared that I bought $20k of BTC at 0.80 and now as a result, I am "entitled" to take $200k from other people as a result. Where did the $180k come from? Thin air? No, it came from the backs of others. While I think it's sweet that I can go buy a god damn Ferrari in exchange for absolutely no work, don't you see anything wrong with that? The root of an economy is goods and services, not money, but as a result of this disparity, I have been enabled to take something from an economy without putting anything back. That is the root of the problem others will seek to solve.

He can not 'take' it from anyone as you say. They have to freely accept his bitcoin or not. It is their choice. What you are trying to do is take away the guy who has the $200k's money.

Terpie

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:04:19 PM

Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 10:55:57 PM

Confiscate? Do you understand the definitions of the words you are using?

Um, yeah, it means what you thought was yours, just became mine. Of course you know Ben Bernanke will never just break into your kitchen and make himself a sandwich on your dime. The confiscation would be clear. But instead he prints money, and you sit and wonder why prices just went up. He confiscates half your sandwich next year by making it cost twice as much and then buying the other half on the free market and hopes you don't notice the difference.

I am the guy who made the YouTube videos who proudly declared that I bought $20k of BTC at 0.80 and now as a result, I am "entitled" to take $200k from other people as a result. Where did the $180k come from? Thin air? No, it came from the backs of others.

So if I value 20,000 BTC more than the $200,000 in my bank account, the holder of the BTC is confiscating my wealth when we make this voluntary trade? You can't be serious.

rezin777

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:10:05 PM

Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 11:08:36 PM

Prove it, take something from me.

Have you ever bought BTC on MtGox since Feb? If so, perhaps I already have! (And yep, you're right... on your part it was voluntary)

I said take. And sorry, no, I don't use MtGox.

rezin777

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:08:49 PM

Nothing, and that'll be the beauty of it. In such a new system, the only person who will stand to gain or lose from your preferences is YOU, not the few of us who were here before you and bought up all the available coins before you realized you wanted some.

Fantastic, can you please give me the option? This is what I've wanted from the start!

casascius

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Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 11:08:36 PM

Prove it, take something from me.

Have you ever bought BTC on MtGox since Feb? If so, perhaps I already have! (And yep, you're right... on your part it was voluntary)

casascius

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Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 11:06:56 PM

Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 10:59:00 PM

I'll bet that in spite of your non-conversion, you'll end up preferring people to pay you with coins like yours rather than difficulty-1 coins, and you'll prefer to pay others with low-difficulty coins (since you'll be able to choose), on the off chance that market forces later tell you you have no choice but to convert.

How much are you willing to bet on my preferences?

Nothing, and that'll be the beauty of it. In such a new system, the only person who will stand to gain or lose from your preferences is YOU, not the few of us who were here before you and bought up all the available coins before you realized you wanted some.

rezin777

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 11:04:19 PM

Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 10:55:57 PM

Confiscate? Do you understand the definitions of the words you are using?

Um, yeah, it means what you thought was yours, just became mine.

Prove it, take something from me.

rezin777

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 10:59:00 PM

I'll bet that in spite of your non-conversion, you'll end up preferring people to pay you with coins like yours rather than difficulty-1 coins, and you'll prefer to pay others with low-difficulty coins (since you'll be able to choose), on the off chance that market forces later tell you you have no choice but to convert.

How much are you willing to bet on my preferences?

casascius

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Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 10:55:57 PM

Confiscate? Do you understand the definitions of the words you are using?

Um, yeah, it means what you thought was yours, just became mine. Of course you know Ben Bernanke will never just break into your kitchen and make himself a sandwich on your dime. The confiscation would be clear. But instead he prints money, and you sit and wonder why prices just went up. He confiscates half your sandwich next year by making it cost twice as much and then buying the other half on the free market and hopes you don't notice the difference.

I am the guy who made the YouTube videos who proudly declared that I bought $20k of BTC at 0.80 and now as a result, I am "entitled" to take $200k from other people as a result. Where did the $180k come from? Thin air? No, it came from the backs of others. While I think it's sweet that I can go buy a god damn Ferrari in exchange for absolutely no work, don't you see anything wrong with that? The root of an economy is goods and services, not money, but as a result of this disparity, I have been enabled to take something from an economy without putting anything back. That is the root of the problem others will seek to solve.

casascius

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Quote from: rezin777 on May 30, 2011, 10:20:59 PM

If you can take away the value that early investors have put into Bitcoin at the slightest whim, no one is ever going to bother with whatever currency replaces it because it will just happen again and again and again.

I agree, let the market decide. My coins would be worth much more than the early adopter's coins with your proposal, but I would never convert.

I'll bet that in spite of your non-conversion, you'll end up preferring people to pay you with coins like yours rather than difficulty-1 coins, and you'll prefer to pay others with low-difficulty coins (since you'll be able to choose), on the off chance that market forces later tell you you have no choice but to convert. Since this new client will clearly tell you how much every BTC you receive "weighs" in light of the prospective conversion value.

Terpie

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 10:44:45 PM

Quote from: Terpie on May 30, 2011, 10:34:45 PM

If you buy $100 of BTC right now, you can purchase $100 worth of goods. If you buy $100 worth of BTC 2.0, you can purchase $100 worth of goods. Except BTC 2.0 has no infrastructure, zero brand recognition, no liquidity, and little hope for appreciation. Why would anyone want BTC 2.0 when the equivalent purchasing power of BTC 1.0 has all of these benefits and more. Can someone start up this blockchain and Inflatacoin already?

Because BTC 1.0 can pop on a moment's notice. The current valuation depends entirely on the fact that only a couple percent of the BTC in existence are actually participating in the market. Around half the coins in existence haven't even been spent out of their generation blocks, they are in the hands of early miners who acquired them easily and make no secret of their intention to use them to confiscate massive amounts of wealth from others at a later date (simply do a forum search for "retirement fund" and you'll see exactly what I mean).

Those who understand why this is a problem and why it threatens the stability of their BTC holdings will gladly adopt a solution to it.

A group of massively wealthy, ideologically-driven visionaries seems like some positive externality in my view. But I also don't buy into the 'confiscation' argument when these are all voluntary trades.

rezin777

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Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 10:44:45 PM

Around half the coins in existence haven't even been spent out of their generation blocks, they are in the hands of early miners who acquired them easily and make no secret of their intention to use them to confiscate massive amounts of wealth from others at a later date (simply do a forum search for "retirement fund" and you'll see exactly what I mean).

Confiscate? Do you understand the definitions of the words you are using?

casascius

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Quote from: kjj on May 30, 2011, 10:43:12 PM

Quote from: casascius on May 30, 2011, 09:51:25 PM

4. A conversion feature allows BTC to be permanently converted to BCP. This feature works by DESTROYING the BTC from the BTC client's perspective - by sending them to a nonexistent BTC address that correlates to a specific BCP address, which the new client recognizes as a conversion. But here is the rub - the amount of BCP you get in a conversion is directly correlated to the mining difficulty of the BTC you're trying to convert, as calculated by following the coins all the way back to their generation. An algorithm deterministically decides the difficulty value of coins that were combined at any point in their history. All of those BTC mined at difficulty 1 won't be worth squat if converted to BCP, so users may as well leave them as BTC. (The client calculates how much your conversion would be worth and allows you to convert only the coins that are worth converting... the difficulty-weighted rate makes it only wortk your while to transfer recently mined BTC into BCP).

Tracing coins back to their coinbase isn't as simple as you make it sound.

Try it. http://blockexplorer.com/address/1GD8Qh7ebmvdaB8Ampcq8qZqNPr78nzjSP

You're right - which is why an algorithm (read above) shall deterministically decide this - This means diluting the weight across all the coins wherever the record shows they have been combined together. Mix some old coins with some new coins, and the coins from the resulting transaction output will weigh somewhere in the middle.

Topic: Early speculator's reward antidote - page 9. (Read 22161 times)