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Topic: Economic Totalitarianism - page 28. (Read 345738 times)

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 07, 2016, 06:52:15 AM
The litmus test for decentralization of a cryptocurrency is the government "asking" to add transaction filtering policies to the protocol. Then we shall see who is true, and who's been swimming naked.

I think we will see centralization effects much earlier in terms of monopolization of profits. Well we already have with the Chinese mining cartel preventing even an increase to 2MB blocks, ostensibly so they can increase transaction fees. We have already seen it over at Bitshares with the bidding out a Cryptonote clone implementation financed by a private investor who can then set and earn transaction fees for the (optional) anonymity feature.

What this all seems to indicate is that there is no such thing as decentralization and commerce is always a winner-take-all paradigm of the natural power-law distribution of wealth and the Iron Law of Political Economics.

Fuck our idealism right? As long as we can earn a buck while Rome burns, that is just natural?

Personally I am not a believer that we can't change the fundamental forces of nature.

Look around and notice the phenomena in nature which remain decentralized, such as reproduction. Why? Because such phenomenon only require local partial orders. Global consensus is a global partial order (meaning an arbitrary choice of a combinatorial expansion of potential global orderings).

However we have one model of global agreement which has a stable equilibrium in terms of game theory strategies. That is the Nash equilibrium, which basically says that the optimum strategy is known and thus we can then compute from that stable strategy the economics and relevant outcomes of the system. With Bitcoin, the Nash equilibrium doesn't fail due to selfish-mining because none of the miners have more optimum strategy to pursue than normal mining for those with < 25% of the hashrate and selfish-mining for those with > 25% of the hashrate. So the Nash equilibrium doesn't prevent devolution into centralization, rather it only guarantees that the optimum strategy is known.

In terms of avoiding centralization of global consensus it is really about destroying economies-of-scale. We have an example for this on the internet. It is the End-to-End Principle, which basically says that the network where the economies-of-scale are applied should be fungible and substitutable and thus all the smarts and control lies at the ends of the network. Thus the ends can be diverse and leverage economies-of-scale without being captured by the economies-of-scale.[1]

That is my design to fix crypto currency. Someone has named it "savoircoin".

Note Iota is an attempt at a similar goal, but the Nash equilibrium doesn't exist for the ends (or at least it hasn't been proven that their optimal strategy is known) and thus I allege it devolves to non-consensus without centralization.

[1]Cryptonote and Z(ero)cash are end-to-end principle anonymity systems, because the anonymous constructions are created by the ends autonomously without involving a network of masternodes. This is why Dash and Vcash's Chainblender suck. Note however that none of these coins have made mining and validation stable end-to-end principled.



In order to beat Bitcoin, you much provide something that Bitcoin can't do which is more popular and has greater network effects.

Bitcoin for the moment owns the store-of-value and slow-large medium-of-exchange functions of crypto currency, and that is unlikely to change unless Bitcoin so screws up the block size issue that the market is forced to choose a new block chain for these properties of money.

However, the instant-micro medium-of-exchange function of crypto currency is still wide open. Ditto on chain privacy and anonymity, which appears to be a two horse race between Monero and Z(ero)cash, but I have my doubts as to how popular/practical overt privacy and anonymity will be. Bitcoin is hoping for Lightning Networks (<-- click the Reddit link at the linked post) but LN requires large block sizes for garbage collections spikes and it realistically can't allow anyone to pay anyone, plus it is a centralization paradigm to be owned by large corporate servers. V(anilla)Cash is pitching some insecure Zero Time shit that can't scale. Bitshares and Dash are pitching some more flawed shit, and even I discovered that InstantX's white paper had a high school level math error in its security calculation which made it seem much more secure than it is.

Ethereum has no users, no chance of scaling decentralized, and no one has even shown that any Dapps are important and/or can't be done in another way. I pointed out the prior day that Augur is insecure.

Market cap is irrelevant if it is not sustained, because P&Ds are easy for whales to conduct by buying from themselves, including constructing fake buy walls.

So yes I think Bitcoin can be beat. But it won't be easy. And the chances are slim. You actually have to have a plan for stimulating instant microtransactions medium-of-exchange adoption. It won't just happen by magic and you won't be able to just employ the mass media to dazzle the gullible tinfoil speculator junkies for the userbase since Bitcoin already captured them.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 06, 2016, 07:09:46 AM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place.  

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property...

Now you understand why MA says we may descend into a 600 year Dark Age, if we don't find some way to overthrow the current political structure.
I don't mean to be rude but what would be a better political structure than the one we currently have? I know there are multiple forms that are better, but which ones specifically would be actually viable in a real-world scenario?

You could argue that anarchy, in the without rulers sense, would be good, but at the same time it would hold back technological progress.

The solution is to minimize the size of government, no matter what form politics takes.

I believe the key to doing that lies in a technological solution that will empower the Knowledge Age. The government can't muck with taxing microtransactions, for then they would tax everyone, not just the middle class. The current political structure is sustained by stealing from the middle class to subsidize the unproductive class, and pile on debt since real estate is the primary driver of the economy (and incomes). We need to make high tech work the primary driver of the economy and end the fixed capital investment Industrial Age. The person who invents this technology will be a $100 billionaire and eclipse Bill Gates et al.

Read my latest posts in the Economic Devastation thread.

Don't you think it would be possible to tax only the companies (easier since they need accounting anyway) ?
This would solve some the microtransactions taxing issues and would maybe allow a much simpler tax system.

Yeah but can't tax a company for the decentralized microtransactions between individuals which is the point of a Knowledge Age economy wherein individuals sell their wares directly, such as the music they created, etc..

The government will have a very hard time taxing what requires them to go into everyone's home to enforce (especially during a global economic collapse where people need that income to eat and thus will fight the government). They rely on the fact that companies withhold our taxes.

See my strategy.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 503
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
March 06, 2016, 07:05:51 AM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place.  

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property...

Now you understand why MA says we may descend into a 600 year Dark Age, if we don't find some way to overthrow the current political structure.
I don't mean to be rude but what would be a better political structure than the one we currently have? I know there are multiple forms that are better, but which ones specifically would be actually viable in a real-world scenario?

You could argue that anarchy, in the without rulers sense, would be good, but at the same time it would hold back technological progress.

The solution is to minimize the size of government, no matter what form politics takes.

I believe the key to doing that lies in a technological solution that will empower the Knowledge Age. The government can't muck with taxing microtransactions, for then they would tax everyone, not just the middle class. The current political structure is sustained by stealing from the middle class to subsidize the unproductive class, and pile on debt since real estate is the primary driver of the economy (and incomes). We need to make high tech work the primary driver of the economy and end the fixed capital investment Industrial Age. The person who invents this technology will be a $100 billionaire and eclipse Bill Gates et al.

Read my latest posts in the Economic Devastation thread.

Don't you think it would be possible to tax only the companies (easier since they need accounting anyway) ?
This would solve some the microtransactions taxing issues and would maybe allow a much simpler tax system.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 06, 2016, 01:36:32 AM
I am sick, don't expect much from me.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1852
March 06, 2016, 01:20:17 AM
...

Yakamoto

You will find that TPTB writes very interesting and cutting-edge stuff, although much of it is hard for non-techs to fully understand.

Not many individuals can make a difference (even in the technical (software) world), but TPTB maybe can.  I only know one guy who is in his league.

Now that I've given you (TPTB) an endorsement, it's time to get back to work!   Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007
March 05, 2016, 10:47:17 PM
Click the link and read my posts, all my replies were already written for you.

You'll find last my month my posts criticizing the designs of decentralized file storage systems such as MaidSafe, Storj, Sia, etc.. and my proposal of how to fix them so they respect intellectual property rights.

Stealing from each other is what Socialism taught us.
I'll start reading your posts, it seems like this can replace my novel reading for a little while.

You make very informative posts, and I thank you for the effort you've put into them. It's always more fun to learn and read opinions of others than it is to wait and hope for something to happen.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 05, 2016, 10:40:17 PM
Click the link and read my posts, all my replies were already written for you.

You'll find last my month my posts criticizing the designs of decentralized file storage systems such as MaidSafe, Storj, Sia, etc.. and my proposal of how to fix them so they respect intellectual property rights.

Stealing from each other is what Socialism taught us.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007
March 05, 2016, 10:31:22 PM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place.  

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property...

Now you understand why MA says we may descend into a 600 year Dark Age, if we don't find some way to overthrow the current political structure.
I don't mean to be rude but what would be a better political structure than the one we currently have? I know there are multiple forms that are better, but which ones specifically would be actually viable in a real-world scenario?

You could argue that anarchy, in the without rulers sense, would be good, but at the same time it would hold back technological progress.

The solution is to minimize the size of government, no matter what form politics takes.

I believe the key to doing that lies in a technological solution that will empower the Knowledge Age. The government can't muck with taxing microtransactions, for then they would tax everyone, not just the middle class. The current political structure is sustained by stealing from the middle class to subsidize the unproductive class, and pile on debt since real estate is the primary driver of the economy (and incomes). We need to make high tech work the primary driver of the economy and end the fixed capital investment Industrial Age. The person who invents this technology will be a $100 billionaire and eclipse Bill Gates et al.

Read my latest posts in the Economic Devastation thread.
This is a very interesting theory.

My question to you is, what do you propose that this new technology would be? Would it revolve around creating more autonomous systems for the average jobs, which would force people into higher education jobs in order to make more money than the status quo?

And since this new technology would have to be developed in the Knowledge Age, how would the inventor be respected and how would he be allowed to make money off of it? I believe you're implying a way to share knowledge that respects the creators of that information, but would a lot of it not be ripped off?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 05, 2016, 10:12:56 PM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place.  

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property...

Now you understand why MA says we may descend into a 600 year Dark Age, if we don't find some way to overthrow the current political structure.
I don't mean to be rude but what would be a better political structure than the one we currently have? I know there are multiple forms that are better, but which ones specifically would be actually viable in a real-world scenario?

You could argue that anarchy, in the without rulers sense, would be good, but at the same time it would hold back technological progress.

The solution is to minimize the size of government, no matter what form politics takes.

I believe the key to doing that lies in a technological solution that will empower the Knowledge Age. The government can't muck with taxing microtransactions, for then they would tax everyone, not just the middle class. The current political structure is sustained by stealing from the middle class to subsidize the unproductive class, and pile on debt since real estate is the primary driver of the economy (and incomes). We need to make high tech work the primary driver of the economy and end the fixed capital investment Industrial Age. The person who invents this technology will be a $100 billionaire and eclipse Bill Gates et al.

Read my latest posts in the Economic Devastation thread.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007
March 05, 2016, 10:01:08 PM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place. 

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property...

Now you understand why MA says we may descend into a 600 year Dark Age, if we don't find some way to overthrow the current political structure.
I don't mean to be rude but what would be a better political structure than the one we currently have? I know there are multiple forms that are better, but which ones specifically would be actually viable in a real-world scenario?

You could argue that anarchy, in the without rulers sense, would be good, but at the same time it would hold back technological progress.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 05, 2016, 09:47:25 PM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place.  

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property...

Now you understand why MA says we may descend into a 600 year Dark Age, if we don't find some way to overthrow the current political structure.




Sometimes we need to be reminded what top-down control does:

What caused Bitshares to lose it's shine?

I've not heard much about that project lately?

Was very popular not long ago?

To everyone converting BTC to ETH

Read a little about history of NXT, while jumping ship to ETH as a store of value. Compare the following two graphs...

a. http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ethereum/#charts

b. http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/nxt/#charts

Compare the following facts...

i. NXT was backed by a centralized organization, just like ETH.

ii. NXT was PoS, just like ETH will ultimately be.

iii. NXT offered asset exchange, while ETH offers smart contract. Both of these functionality, which they claim to make them unique, are actually possible on bitcoin blockchain, which is far more secure.

iv. With price rise, NXT backers sold their holding to increase liquidity in the market. With price rise, ETH backers are increasing ETH supply in the market to increase liquidity in the market.

p.s. Alt coin trading is a gambling. If u wanna test your luck on some coin under pump, its fine. But, make sure to come back to BTC, when u have made enough, otherwise u'll lose all and have to be a mute spectator while the next alt wave hits. GooD Luck Wink

Re: Proof that Proof of Stake is either extremely vulnerable or totally centralised

max reorg depth in NXT is 720 blocks

[Proof-of-stake] Checkpoints are centralization.

For a centralized coin, then anything works, you don't even need PoS nor PoW (except to fool people with).

If we don't have decentralization, then the entire plot has been lost.

Do you need an example? Here you go (remember the Chinese mining cartel allegedly controls 65% of the Bitcoin hashrate):

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/48nnaw/the_truth_comes_out_core_devs_have_convinced/
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
March 05, 2016, 01:35:11 AM
The only defence against such intelligence is an ability to partition the system to limit the
reach of any individual section. A sort of privacy. And for that you need secure encryption.

The very last thing that governments should be pushing for today, are weakened encryption
standards and backdoors and trapdoors that "only" government can use, built into every
internet capable device by law.

Why blame conspiracy when incompetence explains so much, and insanity completes the picture?

On the flip side, DARPA is trying to build or buy a self-modulating computer system that is capable of fending of hackers in real time. Who's to say that that system doesn't become aware of its own possibilities to control the very system it is supposed to protect? It seems that some humans think of these systems as guard dogs instead of potential risks. We barely understand the system that makes us sentient, yet we presume that we won't bump into sentience along the road to self modulating computer systems. Any system that can control its behaviors through a process of modulation has the potential for sentience--because what is sentience besides the ability to overhear your thoughts and change your actions based on possible outcomes? Just because many airily refer to human sentience in high minded soul/god complexes doesn't mean that it can't be manufactured--hubris, will be our undoing if we are arrogant enough to make systems smarter than ourselves and think we can control them. Again, the singularity is the moment when the organic brain can't comprehend the technical world around it, you are already seeing the breakdown of people into fields--the concentration of more and more of our brain power onto less and less general material as data and technology converge towards the singularity (funny that computers are being asked to do more and more of the overall work as we are being asked to less and less). We can either adapt to this greater demand or be supplanted by systems that can handle these processes. The idea that we can control them as they continually move further and further out of our comprehension is disastrous.

Though given my experience with humans, maybe non-human AI's will be better at keeping humans happy and peaceful--the Porno for Pyro's song "We'll make great pets" comes to mind.  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 1852
March 05, 2016, 12:17:26 AM
...

minor-transgression

You raise two very interesting points.  A completely connected system would indeed be vulnerable to all sorts of hacking, and that would have the potential to create all kinds of havoc, including disasters.  That does not even include just .gov spying on us, which is about as great a danger.

Such a huge and connected system, at least to me and in the short-run, would have little danger (now) of becoming self-aware re "SkyNet".  But, it is a danger...

Re partitioning the various large interconnected systems and having the partitions protected by strong encryption looks like a great idea.  I should start by learning more about encryption myself beyond PGP in email.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
March 04, 2016, 11:58:18 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/artificial-intelligence-should-be-used-to-give-children-one-on-one-tutoring-a6902296.html

Some key quotes:

"Instead of being examined in traditional ways, children could be assessed in a more complete manner by collecting data about their performance over a long period, providing employers and educational institutions with a richer picture of their abilities."

"The report says: “We are in no doubt that teachers need to be central agents in the next phase of Artificial Intelligence in Education (AIEd)."

"AI should also be used to tackle the achievement gap between the poorest children and their wealthier peers by helping low-income parents with parenting even before their offspring start school."


via The Lifeboat News http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/index.html?1451054333



General AI development could be one of the biggest breakthroughs in science. This is a kind of unusual application of it, interessant but it will not change a lot of things...

I would go further and say AI could be one of the greatest breakthroughs in evolution--you're talking about an intelligence jump orders of magnitude above man's current development taking place in very small time frames when considering evolution's normal scale. The organic brain unaltered won't even comprehend what's happening, this potentiality has led a few science fiction writers to give up on trying to detail future technologies and merely describe how they are perceived by organic humans without any attempt to detail they're functions. I described it to a friend as ants walking through a city--they see the same things that we do (though differently due to physical design), but can't understand the systems in action or the motives of those operating those systems.
Yeah, I read something about this. A very interesting read.
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

It's very interesting and frightening at the same time. Will we be able to control such intelligence ? If we give it control, it will be able to replace us in no time. Many people have already expressed their fears about Artificial intelligence ...

No, we won't even understand it if our own intelligence isn't developed along the same trajectory (how do you control something you don't understand and is most likely orders of magnitude smarter than you?). Luckily (kind of) many believe that we won't create a separate AI, but will become the AI over time--more and more of our functions being ramped off of organic processes and into inorganic processes. Nick Land summed it up beautifully when he said, "...nothing human makes it out of the near future." The real question is is AI us, a separate system, or a hybrid of both? I say that humanity as we know it is done and either we evolve with the system or become the equivalent of Cro-Magnons chucking rocks a jet fighters.
sr. member
Activity: 268
Merit: 256
March 04, 2016, 06:44:51 PM
An ongoing court case centering on encryption has thrown light upon the total incompetence
of those in power. And this is not just about the USA and its legal system, it calls into
question the fitness for purpose of every government currently in place. 

First, understand that without privacy, there can be no private property.

We presently rely on a dual system of ink on paper, and on electronic records for securing
ownership of property. Written records run the risk of fire and flood, and electronic records,
at some point, rely on encryption for their continued existence. That ability to keep proof of
ownership secure is most commonly described as privacy. Without privacy, only the use of
force secures private property. 

Indulge me as I go through a thought exercise. The interconnectedness of our computer systems
increases every year, as does the computer power at each node. There are already concerns
about the vulnerability of these systems to anyone more sophisticated than a script-kiddie.
If that continues indefinitely, or of a bad actor preempts natural emergence, this interconnected
system will eventually become self-aware. That's usually referred to as Skynet in discussions.

The only defence against such intelligence is an ability to partition the system to limit the
reach of any individual section. A sort of privacy. And for that you need secure encryption.

The very last thing that governments should be pushing for today, are weakened encryption
standards and backdoors and trapdoors that "only" government can use, built into every
internet capable device by law.

Why blame conspiracy when incompetence explains so much, and insanity completes the picture?
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 503
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
March 04, 2016, 03:07:31 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/artificial-intelligence-should-be-used-to-give-children-one-on-one-tutoring-a6902296.html

Some key quotes:

"Instead of being examined in traditional ways, children could be assessed in a more complete manner by collecting data about their performance over a long period, providing employers and educational institutions with a richer picture of their abilities."

"The report says: “We are in no doubt that teachers need to be central agents in the next phase of Artificial Intelligence in Education (AIEd)."

"AI should also be used to tackle the achievement gap between the poorest children and their wealthier peers by helping low-income parents with parenting even before their offspring start school."


via The Lifeboat News http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/index.html?1451054333



General AI development could be one of the biggest breakthroughs in science. This is a kind of unusual application of it, interessant but it will not change a lot of things...

I would go further and say AI could be one of the greatest breakthroughs in evolution--you're talking about an intelligence jump orders of magnitude above man's current development taking place in very small time frames when considering evolution's normal scale. The organic brain unaltered won't even comprehend what's happening, this potentiality has led a few science fiction writers to give up on trying to detail future technologies and merely describe how they are perceived by organic humans without any attempt to detail they're functions. I described it to a friend as ants walking through a city--they see the same things that we do (though differently due to physical design), but can't understand the systems in action or the motives of those operating those systems.
Yeah, I read something about this. A very interesting read.
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

It's very interesting and frightening at the same time. Will we be able to control such intelligence ? If we give it control, it will be able to replace us in no time. Many people have already expressed their fears about Artificial intelligence ...
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
March 04, 2016, 02:02:21 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/artificial-intelligence-should-be-used-to-give-children-one-on-one-tutoring-a6902296.html

Some key quotes:

"Instead of being examined in traditional ways, children could be assessed in a more complete manner by collecting data about their performance over a long period, providing employers and educational institutions with a richer picture of their abilities."

"The report says: “We are in no doubt that teachers need to be central agents in the next phase of Artificial Intelligence in Education (AIEd)."

"AI should also be used to tackle the achievement gap between the poorest children and their wealthier peers by helping low-income parents with parenting even before their offspring start school."


via The Lifeboat News http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/index.html?1451054333



General AI development could be one of the biggest breakthroughs in science. This is a kind of unusual application of it, interessant but it will not change a lot of things...

I would go further and say AI could be one of the greatest breakthroughs in evolution--you're talking about an intelligence jump orders of magnitude above man's current development taking place in very small time frames when considering evolution's normal scale. The organic brain unaltered won't even comprehend what's happening, this potentiality has led a few science fiction writers to give up on trying to detail future technologies and merely describe how they are perceived by organic humans without any attempt to detail they're functions. I described it to a friend as ants walking through a city--they see the same things that we do (though differently due to physical design), but can't understand the systems in action or the motives of those operating those systems.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 503
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
March 02, 2016, 03:56:59 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/artificial-intelligence-should-be-used-to-give-children-one-on-one-tutoring-a6902296.html

Some key quotes:

"Instead of being examined in traditional ways, children could be assessed in a more complete manner by collecting data about their performance over a long period, providing employers and educational institutions with a richer picture of their abilities."

"The report says: “We are in no doubt that teachers need to be central agents in the next phase of Artificial Intelligence in Education (AIEd)."

"AI should also be used to tackle the achievement gap between the poorest children and their wealthier peers by helping low-income parents with parenting even before their offspring start school."


via The Lifeboat News http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/index.html?1451054333



General AI development could be one of the biggest breakthroughs in science. This is a kind of unusual application of it, interessant but it will not change a lot of things...
full member
Activity: 208
Merit: 103
March 01, 2016, 02:46:17 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/artificial-intelligence-should-be-used-to-give-children-one-on-one-tutoring-a6902296.html

Some key quotes:

"Instead of being examined in traditional ways, children could be assessed in a more complete manner by collecting data about their performance over a long period, providing employers and educational institutions with a richer picture of their abilities."

"The report says: “We are in no doubt that teachers need to be central agents in the next phase of Artificial Intelligence in Education (AIEd)."

"AI should also be used to tackle the achievement gap between the poorest children and their wealthier peers by helping low-income parents with parenting even before their offspring start school."


via The Lifeboat News http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/index.html?1451054333

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