Topic: El Salvador has become the first country to make #Bitcoin legal tender! 🇸🇻 - page 72. (Read 38876 times)

So far there has been no sign as you said. But at the moment that possibility is difficult, because every country has the right to regulate the state of their money and economy. So I hope they will be the pioneers of the country legalizing Bitcoin as payment. Indeed, the IMF has warned El Salvador, but they stick to their choice. But there is no new news I got from El Salvador after Nayib Bukele will continue to buy Bitcoin. Even if I'm not mistaken, I've read they won't get any financial aid from the IMF.
Perhaps today they are suffering from the drop in the price of Bitcoin. But if later Bitcoin can reach the latest ATH, maybe they will become a rich country. It is even possible that their move will be imitated by many other countries.

I guess we are all on thesame track in this, the government need to make things at every affordability make readily available for the people to enjoy especially the masses, well, as regards the tax of a thing that is ongoing, we could see how other countries were so strict in collecting tax from bitcoin miners or any organizations well identified with bitcoin and i have to take USA and India as a xase study in these, they just don't take it easy when it comes to paying tax despite they are bitcoin friendly countries, let's consider El-Savador and the kind of leadership Nayib Bukele has established with the people, he has always assumed himself been in their shoes before making any declaration of policy as a leader.

Other interest earning organizations can be taxed because they were in for business but the people should be the major target, these are the common citizens that have no much access to afford paying tax from their income, the government of El-Savador is trying to give out to them first, so that everyone can be well established by improving the standard of living before demanding anything like tax related obligations from the citizens.


Obviously no, El-Savador is well known for bitcoin and that only, everything it has been engaging were on the platform of the adoption through bitcoin in other for the people to have a better experience in using this digital currency, you can imagine a centralized government taking much effort towards implementing a rigorous stand for a decentralized network, this shows that bitcoin is not only Nayib Bukele priority and center of focus but the entire people also needs it for them to enjoy decentralization under a centralized government, and they cant compromise this with alts.

I quote your long post @JayJuanGee because I think everything you said is relevant here. You pointed out that "crypto-friendliness" is a vague term, and I would even say it is meaningless for any entity (commercial or private) planning on conducting long-term business or to settle down in a respective place for a longer period of time.

"friendliness", what does that tell you and what does it help you when you want to make a well-considered decision? I can be friendly while hosting you at my home, at the same time hiding ten corpses in my basement.

In my opinion it comes down to two aspects:

1. Has that so called "friendliness" been converted into effective laws, offering a legal foundation for concerned entities to base their decisions on?

2. If 1. is true, is 1. durable? As in, will the rule of law count and hold today and tomorrow based on historical experience?



This is the World Justice Rule of Law Index. I have worked with it for a couple of years and also wrote some scientific papers with the help of it. From my experience, it is a really good source, but here is another one that ends in 2021 for now, but rates more countries.


In this context, "friendliness" obviously didn't bring the influx of cryptocurrency holders and industry that El Salvador was hoping for. That is not because nobody likes the idea and the pioneering role El Salvador is trying to take. It is because the world knows that neither "friendlieness" nor "rule of law" are likely to last.

That is why these moves of countries like El Salvador don't actually move the market at all. If Germany or the USA did the same, the market would certainly move. I mentioned these countries because both have their own set of restrictions or incentives to not do it. Germany won't take the lead because it can only do so in conjunction or in consensus with the European Union. The USA has, in my opinion, other intentions (albeit not against crypto). I am probably going to open a topic on that and discuss what I mean.

I have my doubts about whether the term "crypto-friendly" is appropriate.

Start out by thinking about El Salvador is intending to be bitcoin friendly, and so the fact that it is "bitcoin friendly" then do you conclude that it is automatically "crypto-friendly?"

I have my doubts, even though in one of the more recent announcements, El Salvador is saying that they are friendly to "technological innovation," which still is likely not exactly the same as "crypto-friendly," even though there could be several ways that they tolerate various expectations that relate to bitcoin, which sometimes might end up being affinity scams.   

I would characterize an affinity scam as something that is trying to seem like it is either the same to bitcoin, similar to bitcoin or even building upon bitcoin, yet in the end, it ends up not providing any kind of legitimate service because one or more of its "short-cuts" or "innovations" is actually employing some kind of a deception in which some kind of a scam or misrepresentation is taking place  - or even a kind of "printing of money" in terms of the creation of a token when a token may not be needed or properly disclosed how and when it is created.

From my point of view, there seems to be some tensions in your wanting to characterize (or maybe group in?) El Salvador as "crypto friendly" when that seems to be a term that you are largely just adopting from the various affinity scammers and even various mainstream media, bitcoin naysayers, shitcoin pumpers who love to ambiguate and dilute the ideas of what bitcoin is.  Was that your intention HedgeFx?  or do you actually sufficiently know what bitcoin is in order that you really know what you are talking about when you suggest that El Salvador is "one of the 'crypto-friendly' countries"?

To me it comes off as you don't really know the topic well enough or even appreciate what El Salvador is doing and attempting to do, if you are suggesting that it is "crypto-friendly," and I will admit that I might not know about some of the ways in which El Salvador might be more "crypto-friendly" or crypto tolerant than I had presumed it to be, merely because it is promoting the use and adoption of bitcoin in its country and the various ways of recognizing what is valid legal tender.  I will grant that it could be possible that El Salvador was a bit too broad and non-specific in their definitions in regards to what is bitcoin in terms of its own legal tender laws?  Which may well not be any kind of a problem unless there could be some ways that it overly invites and allows some affinity scams to get their foot in the door and to suggest that they are being "technologically innovative."   I am not going to proclaim to know all of the possible boundaries and ambiguities, and I would imagine that there are quite a few tensions that continue to exist, even between the kinds of motivations that a sound money like bitcoin creates as compared with various aspects of existing fiat systems, and surely in recent times, we are seeing some of those tensions unfold in terms of various bank failures and then some of the blame that is thrown at crypto and bitcoin, but still bitcoin and crypto are not the same thing, so some of the blame and attempts to address "what went wrong" might not be being presented in very clear ways either.

My fear is always the same: that these "crypto-friendly" countries will sooner or later be forced to backtrack. Global finance is worse than the Mafia, and does gold business with governments: any country that breaks away from their system and their rules is a potential enemy.

I know what you mean by saying that it is a double-edged sword because of the risk that the government of El Salvador must really understand, right? It seems you don't really know who the president of El Salvador is. You need to know that the president of El Salvador is a person who really loves, really likes and really appreciates Bitcoin so that the government made the decision to legalize Bitcoin in the country of El Salvador which of course really understood the risks before making that decision.

The success and progress of a country does depend on several factors, and of the three factors you mentioned, I think the environmental security factor is very influential in increasing economic and political growth as well as tourism there in El Salvador. If you often read tweets made by Nayib Bukele, of course you know that Nayib Bukele has succeeded in making the environment of the country of El Salvador very safe from the previously very frequent murders.

The adoption that has been and is being carried out by the Government of El Salvador is the right step in improving and organizing their economy with a better system. Isn't this something that needs to be supported?
Pros and cons of something will definitely exist but over time things that lead to goodness will always get support.
We read that since the adoption of Nayyib Bukele, El Salvador has started to gain the attention of many investors coupled with their seriousness in producing rules and laws.

So where is the problem that you think could be a double-edged knife.

Edit:
Or are you looking for attention by saying so.

All you said is just common words: which exact underwater stones do you mean? We discussed many things which can be risky in this case during tens of pages of this topic, so we know that things can go as right as wrong. But what do you exactly mean?

When I look at what the gov of El Salvador does I guess they read what we discuss here and if something has sense they try to do their best to improve it. At least I saw that first we discussed something and then there was some news saying that they did something in that direction. So if you see any concrete possible problems then just name them, it can probably help to avoid them.

We can see the adoption of Bitcoin by the state of El Salvador as legal tender as an innovative step, but we still need to see if this is a sustainable innovation in the long term. Because the adoption of this technology can be a double-edged knife and there is always a risk of deviating from the original path. Governments need to be careful in their approach to bitcoin adoption, and they need to ensure that their policies and actions are in line with their overall goals and key objectives.

Ultimately, the success of any government policy depends on a variety of factors, including the political and economic environment, the availability of resources, and the ability to adapt and evolve over time. It remains to be seen whether Bitcoin adoption in El Salvador will prove to be a successful and sustainable innovation. I think this is an interesting experiment that every country should pay close attention to.

That is correct, and only the early adopters can potentially earn the most benefit. Just like using Bitcoin. Of course things can go bad, its not the first time a wonderful project gets crushed by "external" events (like a coup). This is a disease of our developing countries. My country currently has no light at the end of the tunnel, but at least El Salvador has. We can only cheer for Salvadorians to keep this going and shine the light to the rest of the world.

Tax rates are important for business but aren't on first place. Stable rules and fair court mean much more. And it takes lot of time to gain business confidence. El Salvador is on the right way but I don't think that corporations will rush with their decisions of relocating headquarters somewhere. In the same time I think that Bitcoin city project if right organized can attract some corporations to open local branches to grab their piece of the pie. I'm sure many are following the situation in El Salvador in this vein.

What state are you referring to by "took crime away"?  Definitely not El Salvador since at those latitudes you will never be able to remove the crime and I invite you to read up on the infamous areas of the country such as Soyapango.  Even if they have been hit hard by the government they will regroup in no time.

And this is how you develop a country. Not only he got rid of criminals, and adopted Bitcoin, now he incentivizes the technology sector. This country is clearly destined to become technology hub.

If you are a tech company, why would you not move your HQ there? I'm sure more than one will, to Bitcoin City, of course.


Nobody is saying the State is good, but this guy is taking measures to have the State get out of the way. Won't you welcome less taxes? I sure would, and State less money?

As for sustainability, he seems to aim for a VAT only system. As long as you keep some form of State, i guess its inevitable. But less and less State is the way, after solving the major issues, of course. Criminality is no joke, he did the right thing.

I am not going to disagree with you completely Doan9269; however, I doubt that a government is in the business to be benevolent and charitable, and in that regard, governments cannot carry out their purposes through voluntary measures - even though there are likely ways that governments can generate income without strictly taxing various sectors - which seems to be part of El Salvador's attempted direction that is aimed towards ongoing attempts to attract technological innovations and developments into El Salvador.

Whether such systems are sustainable might be another question, and for sure, I am not ant-government because personally I believe that there are various roles for government, and bitcoin seems to be inspiring different ways to structure and to provide incentives - while at the same time bitcoin is a world-wide phenomena so if there are a variety of competing and complementary systems that are interacting with each other, no one system can be completely considered in a vacuum, even if a country is able to set up a large number of self-sustaining systems - and I doubt that anyone is suggesting that El Salvador has enough resources to completely isolate itself from the rest of the world, so in that regard, if El Salvador is able to sustain the impression that it is a place of innovation, then they can attract and build capital.. but any of us should realize that the mere attracting, building and growing practice is not necessarily sustainable.. even though it can be quite prosperous while the attracting and building is going on and even sustainable over several generations, so it is not even necessarily a bad model to engage in practices that strive to attract labor, capital and growth - even though sometimes there can be reluctance from one regime to another in regards to whether even their policies are going to continue, so when they put them to practice they may well become more credible over time, and at this point, El Salvador is ONLY less than two years into announcing that it was getting into bitcoin, so surely a lot of the attempts at snowballing into becoming a "technological hub" is still in the earliest of stages, and likely even scary for some longer term bitcoiners to perhaps start to wonder if they might be devolving into shitcoins too.. and does that interfere with their earlier seemingly focus on bitcoin? 

The answers are not always going to be clear, and sometimes people might start to feel that there is too much deviance from the original path (bitcoin in this case).. and sure I don't want to prejudge any of this because it seems that El Salvador does still seem to be keeping bitcoin developing and networking as its foundational ideas, but still I wanted to just to express some assertions that governmental practices and adoptions are not necessarily straight-forward and non-controversial and sometimes can deviate into potentially controversial and less than straight-forward directions, even if some of us may well continue to agree that they are heading in the right direction and that they have not lost their path (or lost the bitcoin plot), yet.  Don't get me wrong, bitcoin remains a fairly complex topic that touches upon a lot of areas of society, and there are likely a lot of ways that other kinds of interventions and innovations and research can be accepted and acceptable without losing the plot.. even though sometimes it can be difficult to determine whether there might be deviance into shitcoinery.. or that ideas of "no taxes" is misleading, because governments might be cutting taxes in one area or another area, but they are potentially able to make those kinds of cuts in taxes in one area or another because they are relying upon generating revenue in other areas..and potentially new areas that are based on the attraction of industry rather than necessarily raising rates in other areas (while that growth and attraction of enterprises is still able to last).

We could see that when other countries where busy struggling with the payment of tax Nayib Bukele us making an alternative to make life easy for the people just as in the case of petroleum resource subsidy, the government is saddled with the responsibility to carter for the immediate needs of the society in arras that needed more attention with urgency, payment of tax isn't the only IGR the government has, infact it should be the reason why they should deliver upto expectation because much is given to them through these means and so it's expected of them in giving it back to the community development, with bitcoin adoption, El-Savador is changing alot of things that has turn to custom and norms in the government setting and putting them in place through reorganization of the settings and bitcoin is the eye opener and the game changer.

https://watcher.guru/news/el-salvador-president-to-eliminate-all-taxes-on-technology-innovations

In a recent tweet, Bukele notes that all taxes, including income, property, and capital gains, as well as import tariffs, will be eliminated. Additionally, this hasn’t come to fruition yet. The President said that he will be sending a bill to Congress next week.

Furthermore, the President notes that “technology innovations” will include AI development, coding, and apps, among others. Elaborating on the same, Bukele tweeted,

Well, they've either released a draft through/for some media channels, or they’ve rushed the deadline by a month, but the article below referenced included a link to a google drive where you can access the book in English, called "Bitcoin Diploma – Financial Education for the Bitcoin Era".

I've skimmed through the book, and as they intended, it’s a remake with a different angle, and not just a translation from the Spanish version. It looks pretty cool, and might be something worth reading.

Here's the Index:
See:
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/salvadoran-bitcoin-education-program-is-launching-a-new-curriculum-in-english

Edit (official March 2023 edition):
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/MiPrimerBitcoin/Bitcoin-Diploma-English-Version/main/MiPrimerBitcoin_BitcoinDiploma_EnglishVersion_2023.pdf

As we can see from different news and posts in this topic El Salvador's government is at least trying to make so: they start educational programs, they work for more business use bitcoin, they try to advertise bitcoin as wide as possible. We never know if there efforts are enough for achieving a goal of intensive bitcoin adoption until this adoption will totally succeed. So we can just welcome these efforts of El Salvador and hope it will be enough. Because I don't have any additional ideas what they should do else.

Yeah, I don't know the details either, but I am following some of it a little more than most. We in Southeast Asia had a similar "experiment" with organised crime in the Philippines -- the ex president Duterte basically gave free reign to citizens, urging them to deal swiftly and violently with criminals. A period marked by increased extra-judicial killings, it also received widespread approval.

But now he's out and the "war" on drugs is relenting, things will resume after a while. And that's for me proof that you got to deal with underlying issues -- what caused that narcostate situation in the first place. And that's corruption, mainly, and the unwillingness to put the state as accountable.

Anyway, as I said also, I'm more likely than not to support hardline stance. Lesser of evils? A few innocents for the many?

It's just for me somewhat incongruent with what Bukele says he wants for his people with Bitcoin...


Of course, agree. But on one hand, announcing buys on Twitter, and then on another signing off on multi-million dollar contracts with service providers we now know weren't exactly kosher. I see that secrecy benefiting those that have more than those that don't have.

And, as in the case of Duterte... continuity is important. If Bitcoin is to succeed there, it has to be the will of the people, not the will of a man, or a few men.

That is indeed important to be continued by whoever the president who will be elected in the next term in El Salvador, because Nayib Bukele has been protecting and managing the country of El Salvador quite well and safely now in order to be able to launch the Bitcoin project development in El Salvador.

Even three days ago Nayib Bukele had transferred the first 2,000 gang members to the Terrorism Containment Center (CECOT) with the aim of not being able to harm the people there anymore. This is also something that is very impressive in El Salvador because Nayib Bukele wants a Bitcoin city in El Salvador with conditions that are quite safe and comfortable. _{Source: https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1629165213600849920}