Eligius-miners: Do you agree with what is done with your hashing power?

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: rjk on January 13, 2012, 06:42:17 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 13, 2012, 06:23:46 PM

Quote from: rjk on January 13, 2012, 06:03:48 PM

I remember hearing about hybrid pools in the past and thinking they were a good idea, but I forget how they are intended to work. From what I recall, it is a set of p2pool "supernodes" basically. Is that correct?

More simplistically it is just a "normal" pool where the miner is smart. Like in p2pool the miner chooses it own transactions. How it differs from p2pool is you still have a traditional pool front end to handle rewards, manage accounts, check stats, etc.

A hybrid pool could integrate into p2pool being a super node to reduce variance (for both the pool & p2pool).

OK, so somewhat like http://p2poolparty.net/ or do I still not get it?

Yes like p2poolparty but one doesn't need to use p2pool to be a hybrid pool. p2poolparty is a good example though. Yeah it is centralized but its power is very limited. It could ripoff its users but it couldn't attack Bitcoin. It couldn't generate double spends, it couldn't participate in a Finney attack.

rjk

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1ngldh

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 13, 2012, 06:23:46 PM

Quote from: rjk on January 13, 2012, 06:03:48 PM

I remember hearing about hybrid pools in the past and thinking they were a good idea, but I forget how they are intended to work. From what I recall, it is a set of p2pool "supernodes" basically. Is that correct?

More simplistically it is just a "normal" pool where the miner is smart. Like in p2pool the miner chooses it own transactions. How it differs from p2pool is you still have a traditional pool front end to handle rewards, manage accounts, check stats, etc.

A hybrid pool could integrate into p2pool being a super node to reduce variance (for both the pool & p2pool).

OK, so somewhat like http://p2poolparty.net/ or do I still not get it?

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: rjk on January 13, 2012, 06:03:48 PM

I remember hearing about hybrid pools in the past and thinking they were a good idea, but I forget how they are intended to work. From what I recall, it is a set of p2pool "supernodes" basically. Is that correct?

More simplistically it is just a "normal" pool where the miner is smart. Like in p2pool the miner chooses it own transactions. How it differs from p2pool is you still have a traditional pool front end to handle rewards, manage accounts, check stats, etc.

A hybrid pool could integrate into p2pool being a super node to reduce variance (for both the pool & p2pool).

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: Grinder on January 13, 2012, 06:07:01 PM

Luke seems to think it's ok to do anything that *can* be done, so I assume that for instance mining with him and not submit winning shares would be perfectly ok.

Share witholding is really only an issue in PPS pools and there are countermeasures.

Luke-Jr

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Quote from: Grinder on January 13, 2012, 06:07:01 PM

Luke seems to think it's ok to do anything that *can* be done,

I've never said anything of the sort.

Quote from: Grinder on January 13, 2012, 06:07:01 PM

so I assume that for instance mining with him and not submit winning shares would be perfectly ok.

That would hurt yourself and other miners, not me in any direct manner. It's also detectable, and if I find anyone doing it, you can be sure I will block them.

Grinder

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Luke seems to think it's ok to do anything that *can* be done, so I assume that for instance mining with him and not submit winning shares would be perfectly ok.

rjk

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1ngldh

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 13, 2012, 06:01:25 PM

I agree p2pool is necessary (hybrid pools are another options) but technically we only need 51% of miners on "smart" (miner independent) pools to protect Bitcoin.

I remember hearing about hybrid pools in the past and thinking they were a good idea, but I forget how they are intended to work. From what I recall, it is a set of p2pool "supernodes" basically. Is that correct?

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: ?? on ??

I still don't care what happened, but I still find it amazing people want to give up their votes so cheaply.

Come on people, Bitcoin was not designed to put so much control in the hands of so few.

If everyone was on a version of P2Pool, this "problem" wouldn't have happened to begin with.

Wise up people and protect your source of income.

Most Bitcoin miners could give two flying craps about the ScamCoins. I agree p2pool is necessary (hybrid pools are another options) but technically we only need 51% of miners on "smart" (miner independent) pools to protect Bitcoin.

The honest answer is if Eligus went away tomorrow a good chunk of those miners would likely end up at deepbit not p2pool. That is a larger concern than Luke playing God and smiting scam coins.

Rassah

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Quote from: deepceleron on January 13, 2012, 04:25:27 PM

Quote from: Rassah on January 13, 2012, 01:47:12 PM

I only started mining on that pool about two weeks ago, and so far have been paid everything I was entitled to. As long as I'm paid for my hash rate, I really don't give a shit what it's used for. The way I see it is we buy pool management service from Luke for a small fee, and he buys our hashing power with bitcoin. If he pays for it, he owns it.

I would consider pure PPS as the only "mining for hire", you agree to mine for a particular payment per share as disclosed on the pool web site. SMPPS is rewarded partially on block finding and the pool reserve, so it deviates from this, and you are more participatory. In a pool where rewards partially depend on pool luck like SMPPS, you aren't getting paid for a block you found if there is merged mining going on behind the scenes.

All I know is my mining hardware is supposed to be able to mine a certain amount of bitcoin a day, and Eligius has delivered all of it daily, so if any hashing was diverted to other activities, I still got paid for it.
On the other hand, what's this I hear about Luke-Jr being a religious fundamentalist?

deepceleron

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Quote from: Rassah on January 13, 2012, 01:47:12 PM

I only started mining on that pool about two weeks ago, and so far have been paid everything I was entitled to. As long as I'm paid for my hash rate, I really don't give a shit what it's used for. The way I see it is we buy pool management service from Luke for a small fee, and he buys our hashing power with bitcoin. If he pays for it, he owns it.

I would consider pure PPS as the only "mining for hire", you agree to mine for a particular payment per share as disclosed on the pool web site. SMPPS is rewarded partially on block finding and the pool reserve, so it deviates from this, and you are more participatory. In a pool where rewards partially depend on pool luck like SMPPS, you aren't getting paid for a block you found if there is merged mining going on behind the scenes.

Rassah

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I only started mining on that pool about two weeks ago, and so far have been paid everything I was entitled to. As long as I'm paid for my hash rate, I really don't give a shit what it's used for. The way I see it is we buy pool management service from Luke for a small fee, and he buys our hashing power with bitcoin. If he pays for it, he owns it.

bitlane

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I heart thebaron

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 13, 2012, 08:43:01 AM

Quote from: bitlane on January 13, 2012, 08:26:16 AM

YOUR MINING POWER is being used not only to line the pockets of Luke Dash Jr himself, but also to attack other chains in the process.

Wait isn't that an Oxymoron?

If the hashing power is used to attack CLC then aren't the CLCs worthless?
On the other hand if the CLC have value wouldn't that indicate the attack isn't working?

Come on....really ?
For a so-called married & religious male, Luke sure seems to have alot of male suitors.

The term ATTACK, as I am using it......

Recipe:
1) Throw large amounts of hashing power at weak chains, using OTHER'S HASHING POWER (not your own).
2) Collect all alternative chain proceeds yourself, EXCLUSIVELY, WITHOUT COMPENSATING YOUR POOL'S MINERS WHO UNKNOWINGLY PROVIDED SAID POWER FOR THE ATTACKS.
3) Take said proceeds and fire-sale them on the market(s) to further DRIVE DOWN THE VALUE, WHILE DRIVING UP THE DIFFICULTY ON THE CHAIN(S) TO DESTROY THE OPPORTUNITY FOR OTHERS TO PARTAKE, IN A FAIR FASHION.

I0C, IXC, CLC = all targeted and ATTACKED by Luke Dash Jr. PROVEN.
DVC = threat of being ATTACKED by Luke Dash Jr. DOCUMENTED.
LTC = out his his reach thankfully, as he doesn't have the financial or 3rd party 'pool' resources to stage any type of relevant 'attack' on the chain, as it requires CPU Power to dominate.....EXPENSIVE CPU POWER (Intel I7 or better). OBVIOUS.

....Anything else ?

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: bitlane on January 13, 2012, 08:26:16 AM

YOUR MINING POWER is being used not only to line the pockets of Luke Dash Jr himself, but also to attack other chains in the process.

Wait isn't that an Oxymoron?

If the hashing power is used to attack CLC then aren't the CLCs worthless?
On the other hand if the CLC have value wouldn't that indicate the attack isn't working?

bitlane

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I heart thebaron

It's nice to see that Eligius has taken a 50-odd GH/s hit in loss of mining power, but that is simply NOT ENOUGH.

People need to WAKE UP and leave that pool. As has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, YOUR MINING POWER is being used not only to line the pockets of Luke Dash Jr himself, but also to attack other chains in the process.

DEMAND COMPENSATION, or run for the hills.

doublec

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Quote from: ?? on ??

So he did the attack, then lied about using his pool to do it?

What I posted just means it's likely Eligius is mining alternate chains, nothing more. It could just be namecoin for example with weird merkle tree sizing. Someone more motivated would have to dig further into the chains if they wanted to find anything else out.

doublec

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 07, 2012, 07:50:52 PM

Which doesn't provide any evidence he used his pool.

It can be shown that the Eligius pool is likely multiple block chains by looking at the coinbase of the generated bitcoin transactions. Here's a coinbase from an Eligius bitcoin block that was used for namecoin only merge mining:

Code:

Block 160257
coinbase: 07456c696769757302660c2c4d4d3d3d4976cbf9003c0705e29e581038d3ddbe260a5d324c2b17b24779b6ca48c4f8320100000000000000074f505f4556414c

The details of the coinbase are available in the merged mining specification. From this you can see that the number of entries in the aux merkle tree is 1. This means up to 1 other chain is being mined. That's probably namecoin. You can look up the hash of the namecoin block. It's hash 4976cbf9003c0705e29e581038d3ddbe260a5d324c2b17b24779b6ca48c4f832 or block 36067.

Now look at a slightly later block. Say 160499:

Code:

Block 160499:
coinbase 07456c6967697573025b252cfabe6d6dd28f2fe3e45981bb5ede1a627d762c620847f088cca62d45e6e91f3222ca48b60400000000000000074f505f4556414c

The aux merkle tree size is 4. So up to four other alt chains are being mined. Why the increase if it's only namecoin being mined? Also note that the hash in the coinbase no longer corresponds to a namecoin block. This is another sign multiple chains are being mined. This is during the period that i0coin and ixcoin hash rates increased.

Now a more recent block:

Code:

Block 161090:
coinbase 07456c696769757302a6572cfabe6d6db1e2cb4f9537ecca37a59867856aba5c856992564a80918def0b965174d19a880800000000000000

The aux merkle tree size here is 8. Why the increase? Coiled Coin and Devcoin are both active at this time and would have required the aux merkle size to be upped. I got the Eligius found blocks from here.

rjk

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1ngldh

Here I'll help you guys out: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.678080

Quote from: Luke-Jr on January 06, 2012, 02:23:32 PM

Why does it seem like people don't read anything? The Coiledcoin nonsense is NOT RELATED TO THE POOL.

Whether I or anyone else believes that statement is a different matter of course.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: Littleshop on January 07, 2012, 07:50:05 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 07, 2012, 11:40:02 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 07, 2012, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Bobnova on January 07, 2012, 10:52:17 AM

Quote from: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 04:06:22 PM

Also— please take care here, Luke did not roll back anyone's transactions or double-spend or anything like that. He's simply mining all the blocks and not processing more transactions.

Assuming the first statement is true (which is quite the assumption), the second is hilarious!

It's ok to run a DDOS on alt coins now?

Yes it appears so and misuse your users hash power to do it, amazing is it not? The longer this goes on with no reactions against it by the people in a position to make a difference shows just exactly what they are like as well. In their lack of action they show their support for what has been done, so are no better than he who has done it in my books. Their obvious lip service to the supposed goals of the bitcoin project of an open and free environment ring as hollow as that lame defense of his actions you quote.

What is your proof that he used miner's resources?

He admitted it in the irc logs that had been posted but since deleted by the mods in support of his actions on here. So you can play your BS proof game elsewhere as it will never see the light of day on this forum and you know that.

So another unsupported claim to "support" your unsupported claim.

Besides the IRC logs which are posted on this board which support that claim, on page 6 of the following thread Luke-JR says:
"CoiledCoin now closed. Have a nice day."

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56675.40

Which doesn't provide any evidence he used his pool.

Littleshop

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 07, 2012, 11:40:02 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 07, 2012, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Bobnova on January 07, 2012, 10:52:17 AM

Quote from: gmaxwell on January 06, 2012, 04:06:22 PM

Also— please take care here, Luke did not roll back anyone's transactions or double-spend or anything like that. He's simply mining all the blocks and not processing more transactions.

Assuming the first statement is true (which is quite the assumption), the second is hilarious!

It's ok to run a DDOS on alt coins now?

Yes it appears so and misuse your users hash power to do it, amazing is it not? The longer this goes on with no reactions against it by the people in a position to make a difference shows just exactly what they are like as well. In their lack of action they show their support for what has been done, so are no better than he who has done it in my books. Their obvious lip service to the supposed goals of the bitcoin project of an open and free environment ring as hollow as that lame defense of his actions you quote.

What is your proof that he used miner's resources?

He admitted it in the irc logs that had been posted but since deleted by the mods in support of his actions on here. So you can play your BS proof game elsewhere as it will never see the light of day on this forum and you know that.

So another unsupported claim to "support" your unsupported claim.

Besides the IRC logs which are posted on this board which support that claim, on page 6 of the following thread Luke-JR says:
"CoiledCoin now closed. Have a nice day."

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56675.40

P4man

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Merged mining only means eglesius pool members wouldnt have been penalized by luke's actions, as in, they wouldnt have suffered BTC or NMC losses. It doesnt mean those pool members didnt involuntarily contribute to the attack on coilcoin.

Topic: Eligius-miners: Do you agree with what is done with your hashing power? (Read 6858 times)