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Topic: ==== Eligius, please pay my 200+ BTC ==== - page 4. (Read 12605 times)

hero member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 502
Btw: Funny how the discussion rolls on, while the guy who opened this thread seems to have disappeared....

True.
That's because it's a serious matter.

BTW: WK I don't know how your pool software works but can't you have a script like a "watchdog" checking about these things?

E.G. when shares are submitted by a client you could do:

if((sharesSubmitted > xxxxxxx) && (blocksFound < x)){

  // notify pool mods to start monitoring this account

}

Just a thought Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1150
Btw: Funny how the discussion rolls on, while the guy who opened this thread seems to have disappeared....
hero member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 502
well this escalated quickly Grin *grabs some more popcorn*

but still sad...hardly any scammer is ever brought to real justice...or its very few n far between...the 200btc we got to hold from him is pretty much all we'll get

true, there is no chance of getting the other 400BTC back.

However, I believe that using the 200BTC to place a bounty for whoever comes up with a valid solution, either as new software or a tweak in the current software would be a great idea.

The ~200 BTC belongs to the miners who were underpaid due to the withholding attack.

I understand that but if they all come to an agreement to do so in order to protect themselves in the future, the mining pools will be safer from these kinds of attacks.

Just a thought.

I would consider that virtually impossible.  There are thousands of addresses affected, and Eligius has no contact information for them whatsoever.  Getting the word out to these thousands of miners would be impossible in itself, let alone getting them *all* to agree to forfeit funds... best to just pay them.

OK, I understand.

Well, none the less I hope you guys can find a good solution to this Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1223
Merit: 1006
well this escalated quickly Grin *grabs some more popcorn*

but still sad...hardly any scammer is ever brought to real justice...or its very few n far between...the 200btc we got to hold from him is pretty much all we'll get

true, there is no chance of getting the other 400BTC back.

However, I believe that using the 200BTC to place a bounty for whoever comes up with a valid solution, either as new software or a tweak in the current software would be a great idea.

The ~200 BTC belongs to the miners who were underpaid due to the withholding attack.

I understand that but if they all come to an agreement to do so in order to protect themselves in the future, the mining pools will be safer from these kinds of attacks.

Just a thought.

I would consider that virtually impossible.  There are thousands of addresses affected, and Eligius has no contact information for them whatsoever.  Getting the word out to these thousands of miners would be impossible in itself, let alone getting them *all* to agree to forfeit funds... best to just pay them.
hero member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 502
well this escalated quickly Grin *grabs some more popcorn*

but still sad...hardly any scammer is ever brought to real justice...or its very few n far between...the 200btc we got to hold from him is pretty much all we'll get

true, there is no chance of getting the other 400BTC back.

However, I believe that using the 200BTC to place a bounty for whoever comes up with a valid solution, either as new software or a tweak in the current software would be a great idea.

The ~200 BTC belongs to the miners who were underpaid due to the withholding attack.

I understand that but if they all come to an agreement to do so in order to protect themselves in the future, the mining pools will be safer from these kinds of attacks.

Just a thought.
legendary
Activity: 1223
Merit: 1006
well this escalated quickly Grin *grabs some more popcorn*

but still sad...hardly any scammer is ever brought to real justice...or its very few n far between...the 200btc we got to hold from him is pretty much all we'll get

true, there is no chance of getting the other 400BTC back.

However, I believe that using the 200BTC to place a bounty for whoever comes up with a valid solution, either as new software or a tweak in the current software would be a great idea.

The ~200 BTC belongs to the miners who were underpaid due to the withholding attack.
hero member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 502
well this escalated quickly Grin *grabs some more popcorn*

but still sad...hardly any scammer is ever brought to real justice...or its very few n far between...the 200btc we got to hold from him is pretty much all we'll get

true, there is no chance of getting the other 400BTC back.

However, I believe that using the 200BTC to place a bounty for whoever comes up with a valid solution, either as new software or a tweak in the current software would be a great idea.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
I am not wrong no solo pool will be hurt  by the attacker.
Um, so you get the worst of both worlds?
Just solo mine for real.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250

There is a higher chance these people would be persecuted along with all BTC users in China, than that Government taking up the cause of miners in another country to get their 400 BTC back.
I doubt they would spend $240k on legal fees
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'
I would say leave the courts out of this. As this issue affects all pools, all pool operators need to work together on this one to shut this mining operation out of pools or keep taxing them their mined BTC until they stump up what they stole.

Im surprised that they are not mining on Discus Fish. What happened there, did they try this already with them and got booted ( speculating here )?


Well if all the bigger reliable pools offered miners a second fork for solo mining it would have stopped this guy.

And they need to offer that option….  As it gives them an out :

  if you are afraid of shit gear hurting your pools luck go to our solo fork.


Yet to hear of any major  1ph or bigger pool giving us a solo fork choice.  

below from btcguild's support page


Miner Connection Details
Stratum Servers

Host (USA)   stratum.btcguild.com:3333
Host (EU)   eu-stratum.btcguild.com:3333

Solo       = missing not available >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   just give a connection address to us miners   you don't.  And basically  the asshole  that fucked you and us   could do it again for hire …  yeah for hire   cex.io could hire the guy to attack your pools and crash the luck  give us a fucking solo fork !!!  He can not hurt a solo fork..  Solo forks are fucking safe from this attack !!!!!!  fix this now!!


Username     philipma1957
Password    (anything)



Just a simple shut out  to real pool ops do this before it is too late.    We will get slapped again and again.  It is clear this can be done on purpose.  even if what the op that did  this was completely innocent of any wrong doing 0 intent just an accident.  

He now knows what he can do with his gear  he can fuckup someones pool on purpose.  His hash power is a weapon of bad luck.  Only a solo pool stops this type attack perfectly.      and no big pool offers the option yet.

 Hey pool op  guys read the thread  tell me I am wrong .

 I am not wrong no solo pool will be hurt  by the attacker.

 So then tell me a solo pool is costly well then charge enough 1.5 coins out of a block of 25 coins is 6%.

 run btc and nmc take 6%  if very few use the option still run it as it clears you in case this guy  does it again. 

You can simply say we offered a solo pool  option to safegaurd you from a "bad luck" attack  you did not use the option .
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 504
Dream become broken often
well this escalated quickly Grin *grabs some more popcorn*

but still sad...hardly any scammer is ever brought to real justice...or its very few n far between...the 200btc we got to hold from him is pretty much all we'll get
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Kia ora!
Even if that was the case then this person would have the risk that the Chinese reverse their policy.

China has never reversed its laws on extraditions of its citizens to any country, even countries it considered to be its own allies. Chances of them doing so in this situation is NIL. They would be more likely to mount their own prosecution against these people, which again, chances are about NIL.

There is a higher chance these people would be persecuted along with all BTC users in China, than that Government taking up the cause of miners in another country to get their 400 BTC back.

This person would also not be able to travel throughout the world nor would they be able to have assets outside of China.

Sure you could restrict their movement by having international arrest warrants issued for them in participating countries, keep in mind though there are about 70 or so countries that do not have extradition treaties with the USA, so while its true their movements would be limited, they would not be THAT limited.

But how does that get everyone's BTC back. It doesn't, even if you catch and lock this chap up while on an overseas jaunt, still no BTC unless you catch him or her with the private keys. But by then, you've spent 1000 BTC on legal fees, Jack Bauer and crew would charge you that amount again...and still not one single BTC returned to those they rightfully belong to.

This is the thing with BTC, when its gone. Its gone.....

You either have to get solidarity amongst all major pool operators to shut these cats out and for all of them to start doing what Eligius did, until they come to table to talk,

or move on with your lives.
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
Interestingly, I will continue to focus on this topic.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I know y'all might think you have an all powerful all seeing eye Government, but the US Government does not have an extradition treaty with China - China being one of those countries that is opposed to the extradition of any of its citizens.

So unless you had the Government in China push for their prosecution, all you will end up with is a toothless conviction in absentia.

Even if that was the case then this person would have the risk that the Chinese reverse their policy. This person would also not be able to travel throughout the world nor would they be able to have assets outside of China.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Kia ora!
I know y'all might think you have an all powerful all seeing eye Government, but the US Government does not have an extradition treaty with China - China being one of those countries that is opposed to the extradition of any of its citizens.

So unless you had the Government in China push for their prosecution, all you will end up with is a toothless conviction in absentia.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
I would say leave the courts out of this. As this issue affects all pools, all pool operators need to work together on this one to shut this mining operation out of pools or keep taxing them their mined BTC until they stump up what they stole.

Im surprised that they are not mining on Discus Fish. What happened there, did they try this already with them and got booted ( speculating here )?

Without the involvement of the courts these miners would be stealing from the miners and receiving some level of profit.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Kia ora!
I would say leave the courts out of this. As this issue affects all pools, all pool operators need to work together on this one to shut this mining operation out of pools or keep taxing them their mined BTC until they stump up what they stole.

Im surprised that they are not mining on Discus Fish. What happened there, did they try this already with them and got booted ( speculating here )?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin
Are you located in China? Is the selfish miner located in China?
He claims to be named LiYi, and located in GuangZhou, China.

US counts should have jurisdiction in this matter. If the damages were done in the US and one party is located internationally then Federal courts have jurisdiction.


2 - Individual miners may not have standing to sue the selfish miner. In a civil case (involving money/damages) you must prove that damages be caused, but also that he damages were against you. There is clearly a relationship between the miners and the pool (the miners provide work for the pool and in exchange for each unit of work the pool provides a maximum amount of payment, if payment is less then the maximum then when the pool can afford to pay more then the maximum the units that got paid less get paid more). The relationship between miners at the pool are not as clear. I am not an attorney, but I think a likely ruling would be if a miner tried to sue another miner at the same pool, the judge would say that their "beef" is with the pool operator, not the selfish miner. On the other hand if the pool operator were to sue a miner the damages are more clear, as the miner did not provide the work, the miner said they provided the work, and the pool operator paid for the work that was not done. There is clearly a fraud here.
Pools don't pay miners for work, merely coordinate cooperation between miners who pay each other.
This is especially clear-cut on Eligius, where most of the funds never pass through the pool operator's hands.
That may be how it is on a logistics standpoint, but is that how it is in the eyes of the law? If you were BTC Guild or ghash I would say defiantly no, as both of those pools have block rewards (and tx fees) paid to the "pool" wallet, and the BTC is then eventually transferred to miners' wallets via automatic payouts. Eligius is very different in that it pays the block rewards (and tx fees) directly to miners via a TX in the found block. Someone could argue what you are saying but they could also argue that since the pool determines who gets paid how much via the payout cue (this being embedded into the header of work provided by the pool - I think this is how it works) that the pool does really control the found blocks. Even a attorney could likely not answer this question with certainty, as I don't think this kind of dispute has been litigated before. The only person who can answer would be the judge that hears the case (and any appellate panel of judges that hear any appeals).
I know for tax purposes, other pools are using this same interpretation.

For tax purposes. But that interoperation is the same as if pools considered the block rewards as income (revenue) and the earning paid to miners (independent contractors for tax purposes) as expenses. It would be a wash. This is N/A for eligius but the pool fees would be income/revenue and the expenses (costs to rent servers, bandwidth, salaries if applicable) would be deducted from revenue to get the net profit to find what you owe in taxes.

Another argument is that the IRS has ruled bitcoin to be an "asset" but DPR aka Ross Ulbright has been charged with money laundering when dealing only in bitcoin. Just because something is considered one way for tax purposes does not mean that it is that way in "fact" and could be worked another way for "non-tax" purposes.




In theory he paid good money for this equipment.
Supposedly he made it all himself.
That means his primary cost is electricity (actual chips and PCBs do not cost very much to produce).
Electricity can add up. Probably not in the millions  but still not free. I would be interested to know how to build minors in a similar fashion but that is another conversation.



As far as I can tell he has done this to multiple pools. Do you think it would be possible to modify mining software so that only the stratum shares are sent back to the pool with the correct header, but the other shares could use a different header (one that pay out to another address)? Do you have a way to determine when he withheld a block from the pool? If so can you compare that to other blocks found around that time, is there any consistency as to who found the blocks? I know that it has previously been determined that you cannot modify block headers to make a found block payout to your own address as the hash would be invalid, but someone who has the resources to have millions of dollars worth of mining equipment might have the resources to make this happen.
It's not possible. I don't understand this part of your post entirely.

What is should happen when pool mining is the pool sends a block header (the header contains among other things where to send the block reward to) to the miner, the miner tries a random hash to check if the hash finds a valid block, and if so send the valid block to the pool, and if not then tell the pool they found one invalid (this may not be the correct terminology, but "invalid" meaning the miner did not find a block) hash. This is repeated until a valid block is found by the network. With GBT this is done with every single hash.

With stratum the same thing happens, only that only x% of "invalid" (see above explanation for "invalid" - did not find a block) hashes and every hash that does find a block. With every hash that the miner checks, it will use the same block header provided by the pool.

What my question was could someone, in theory, modify something so that only the x% of shares/hashes (the exact hashes that are sent to the pool) contain the header provided by the pool? For example, the software knows that hash1, hash 45, and hash 93 will be sent to the pool, only those three hashses will contain the header provided by the pool. The other hashes would contain some other header.

My question seems to have been answered by the fact that he spent much less on his equipment then his hashrate would indicate.

I am still interested to know what his motive would be in selfish mining. Even if he was not caught he would have a lower payout as the pool would find less blocks. This leads me to believe that he somehow reported that he had a higher hashrate then he really had.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1186
Are you located in China? Is the selfish miner located in China?
He claims to be named LiYi, and located in GuangZhou, China.

2 - Individual miners may not have standing to sue the selfish miner. In a civil case (involving money/damages) you must prove that damages be caused, but also that he damages were against you. There is clearly a relationship between the miners and the pool (the miners provide work for the pool and in exchange for each unit of work the pool provides a maximum amount of payment, if payment is less then the maximum then when the pool can afford to pay more then the maximum the units that got paid less get paid more). The relationship between miners at the pool are not as clear. I am not an attorney, but I think a likely ruling would be if a miner tried to sue another miner at the same pool, the judge would say that their "beef" is with the pool operator, not the selfish miner. On the other hand if the pool operator were to sue a miner the damages are more clear, as the miner did not provide the work, the miner said they provided the work, and the pool operator paid for the work that was not done. There is clearly a fraud here.
Pools don't pay miners for work, merely coordinate cooperation between miners who pay each other.
This is especially clear-cut on Eligius, where most of the funds never pass through the pool operator's hands.
That may be how it is on a logistics standpoint, but is that how it is in the eyes of the law? If you were BTC Guild or ghash I would say defiantly no, as both of those pools have block rewards (and tx fees) paid to the "pool" wallet, and the BTC is then eventually transferred to miners' wallets via automatic payouts. Eligius is very different in that it pays the block rewards (and tx fees) directly to miners via a TX in the found block. Someone could argue what you are saying but they could also argue that since the pool determines who gets paid how much via the payout cue (this being embedded into the header of work provided by the pool - I think this is how it works) that the pool does really control the found blocks. Even a attorney could likely not answer this question with certainty, as I don't think this kind of dispute has been litigated before. The only person who can answer would be the judge that hears the case (and any appellate panel of judges that hear any appeals).
I know for tax purposes, other pools are using this same interpretation.

In theory he paid good money for this equipment.
Supposedly he made it all himself.
That means his primary cost is electricity (actual chips and PCBs do not cost very much to produce).

As far as I can tell he has done this to multiple pools. Do you think it would be possible to modify mining software so that only the stratum shares are sent back to the pool with the correct header, but the other shares could use a different header (one that pay out to another address)? Do you have a way to determine when he withheld a block from the pool? If so can you compare that to other blocks found around that time, is there any consistency as to who found the blocks? I know that it has previously been determined that you cannot modify block headers to make a found block payout to your own address as the hash would be invalid, but someone who has the resources to have millions of dollars worth of mining equipment might have the resources to make this happen.
It's not possible. I don't understand this part of your post entirely.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin
You previously said that eligius lost ~400 BTC, based on $571 for 1 BTC that comes out to ~$228,400 that was stolen. Your largest mining address lost ~$14,850 from the selfish miner. If you look at your number 5 mining address they only lost ~$3,300 from the selfish miner. The point is that the amounts of individual miners are relatively small and probably would not be worth hiring an attorney over, also attorneys would probably want to be paid by the hour for a case with that much is dispute. If you were to hire an attorney to bring a case trying to recover the entire $228,400 (400 BTC) then there would be a better chance that an attorney would work on a contingent basis (agree to only get paid if they win and the payment would be taken out of the settlement/judgment).
Probably right. Which would mean it'd have to be a class-action case (if there even is such a thing in China).
As far as I know, nobody ever wins in class-action lawsuits... Sad

The attorneys usually win in class actions cases.

Are you located in China? Is the selfish miner located in China?

I am not sure where the appropriate venue for such a lawsuit would be. If you are located in the US and the selfish miner is located in China then federal court would be appropriate as there is a dispute over international commerce. You would need to prove that the "damages" were done in the US. If the pool is in the US and the pool was the entity that was damaged then this should be clear.

If it is determined that the individual miners were damaged then this is much less clear. If a class action lawsuit were to be filed then "class members" located in the US could be included and the suit would be filed in federal court. The definition of located complicates things significantly, does it mean the equipment is located there, does it mean the "owners" of the BTC addresses live there, does it mean they are US citizens/residents? I honestly do not know the answer to the question.

One thing I noticed lacking on your website is something that says what laws would be followed in the event of a dispute or what court cases would be held in (what state/district). If there is zero relationship between the pool and the miners this may be a non-issue. 
2 - Individual miners may not have standing to sue the selfish miner. In a civil case (involving money/damages) you must prove that damages be caused, but also that he damages were against you. There is clearly a relationship between the miners and the pool (the miners provide work for the pool and in exchange for each unit of work the pool provides a maximum amount of payment, if payment is less then the maximum then when the pool can afford to pay more then the maximum the units that got paid less get paid more). The relationship between miners at the pool are not as clear. I am not an attorney, but I think a likely ruling would be if a miner tried to sue another miner at the same pool, the judge would say that their "beef" is with the pool operator, not the selfish miner. On the other hand if the pool operator were to sue a miner the damages are more clear, as the miner did not provide the work, the miner said they provided the work, and the pool operator paid for the work that was not done. There is clearly a fraud here.
Pools don't pay miners for work, merely coordinate cooperation between miners who pay each other.
This is especially clear-cut on Eligius, where most of the funds never pass through the pool operator's hands.


That may be how it is on a logistics standpoint, but is that how it is in the eyes of the law? If you were BTC Guild or ghash I would say defiantly no, as both of those pools have block rewards (and tx fees) paid to the "pool" wallet, and the BTC is then eventually transferred to miners' wallets via automatic payouts. Eligius is very different in that it pays the block rewards (and tx fees) directly to miners via a TX in the found block. Someone could argue what you are saying but they could also argue that since the pool determines who gets paid how much via the payout cue (this being embedded into the header of work provided by the pool - I think this is how it works) that the pool does really control the found blocks. Even a attorney could likely not answer this question with certainty, as I don't think this kind of dispute has been litigated before. The only person who can answer would be the judge that hears the case (and any appellate panel of judges that hear any appeals).

I do question what this person's motive would be. In theory he paid good money for this equipment. As far as I can tell he has done this to multiple pools. Do you think it would be possible to modify mining software so that only the stratum shares are sent back to the pool with the correct header, but the other shares could use a different header (one that pay out to another address)? Do you have a way to determine when he withheld a block from the pool? If so can you compare that to other blocks found around that time, is there any consistency as to who found the blocks? I know that it has previously been determined that you cannot modify block headers to make a found block payout to your own address as the hash would be invalid, but someone who has the resources to have millions of dollars worth of mining equipment might have the resources to make this happen.
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