Topic: End of Governments - page 6. (Read 6579 times)

Government isnt protection from bandits naive person, government is what resulted from the bandits winning and taking over.

That is probably the dumbest, most poorly contrived argument ever trolled. It belongs in the Internet Troll Hall of Shame.

if cbeast didn't have me on ignore, he'd learn that a troll got onto a German stamp for exactly the idea put forward by Anon136:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Oppenheimer#Der_Staat_.28The_State.29

Let's see something that has been written in recent anthropological or sociological peer reviewed journals. Anyone can conjecture. Again, if you are going to assert an opinion, base it on some evidence. I am not an historian, but at least I used Rome as an example of a developing state. That's the difference between philosophy and science. You can prove facts wrong, that is how science is done. Since philosophy cannot be falsified it is not science. Maybe I'll look for a discourse between Oppenheimer and Marx. It sounds like an interesting subject on labor philosophy. This will be very important in the post central bank era.

Severian

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: cbeast on March 17, 2013, 06:29:43 AM

Government isnt protection from bandits naive person, government is what resulted from the bandits winning and taking over.

That is probably the dumbest, most poorly contrived argument ever trolled. It belongs in the Internet Troll Hall of Shame.

if cbeast didn't have me on ignore, he'd learn that a troll got onto a German stamp for exactly the idea put forward by Anon136:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Oppenheimer#Der_Staat_.28The_State.29

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

A completely philisophical thought experiment. You may believe this argument if you wish, but it is not based on forensic sciences. There are a lot of ifs used and no historical examples.

Right, no historical examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_commonwealth
And since it's St. Patrick's day, let's not forget the Irish Tuatha: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuath

Historically, anarchies have been more stable, long-term, than States.

Anon136

legendary

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1217

Quote from: cbeast on March 17, 2013, 09:51:01 AM

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

Government isnt protection from bandits naive person, government is what resulted from the bandits winning and taking over.

That is probably the dumbest, most poorly contrived argument ever trolled. It belongs in the Internet Troll Hall of Shame.

and that was not a rebuttal Wink

nice try tho, i haven't fallen for tricks like that since i was very young.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

Government isnt protection from bandits naive person, government is what resulted from the bandits winning and taking over.

That is probably the dumbest, most poorly contrived argument ever trolled. It belongs in the Internet Troll Hall of Shame.

Anon136

legendary

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1217

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Quote from: cbeast on March 17, 2013, 06:29:43 AM

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

Government isnt protection from bandits naive person, government is what resulted from the bandits winning and taking over.

pennywise

member

Activity: 73

Merit: 10

A completely philisophical thought experiment. You may believe this argument if you wish, but it is not based on forensic sciences. There are a lot of ifs used and no historical examples.

Yes, of course, this stuf never made it to real world. Yet. Of course it was only thught of few decades ago, when the implementation was impossible, because the existing solutions worked fine for western world. Which is no more so.

There are ifs for sure (nice song, btw), however about historical examples following could be said:
-every empire, when only founded and rising to power (Say Greek, Roman, etc), had same rules: low taxes, low or inexistent welfare, simple and small set of laws. Yet population managed to grow, technical progres was made and civilisation was thriving. When empires were slowly dying, things above were mostly opposite. When romans realized that their budget spending will make them lose all the gold soon, they started to mix other metals to their coins while coins were maintaining same value. And they postponed their decline for a while.

-some of things that are described in video worked just fine in the wild west, includng basically no welfare support.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: pennywise on March 17, 2013, 03:56:05 AM

So the basic question of this thread is:

If we disband government, can we stil have a free and safe society?

Answer: YES, WE CAN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o

A completely philisophical thought experiment. You may believe this argument if you wish, but it is not based on forensic sciences. There are a lot of ifs used and no historical examples.

pennywise

member

Activity: 73

Merit: 10

So the basic question of this thread is:

If we disband government, can we stil have a free and safe society?

Answer: YES, WE CAN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o

Sage

hero member

Activity: 632

Merit: 500

Quote from: RodeoX on March 14, 2013, 11:44:35 AM

The "end of government" would mean the end of peace, security, freedom, and all the infrastructure that has never worked without a governing authority.

People love to talk about how the U.S. government oppresses them. I would suggest spending some coins on a world history course. We live in the safest, free-est conditions the world has ever known. You can expect to get old and have many of your diseases cured. You likely won't die in a war or starve.

Do a little traveling. I don't know how you are measuring freedom, but I feel far more free outside the US then I ever did in it.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Mike Christ on March 16, 2013, 10:35:29 PM

Darn Anarchists. Just as bad as those darn Atheists. Always gotta go around shouting your hoo-haw and your fiddley-fud.

Tongue

Ruining your comfortable illusions with our pesky logic....

Mike Christ

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Activity: 1078

Merit: 1003

Darn Anarchists. Just as bad as those darn Atheists. Always gotta go around shouting your hoo-haw and your fiddley-fud.

Tongue

Monster Tent

full member

Activity: 238

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I think you should be free to choose which country you want to live in up till you are 18-25. By this I mean you arent a citizen untill you actually sign a contract. A child cant understand or sign contracts so why should they be forced into one because of birth ?

This is why the Amish let their teenagers go into the world for a year or two as teenagers so that when they return it is their own choice.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

And then we start selecting our defenders ourselves, instead of our defenders forcing their protection upon us. Progress!

But again, you seem to forget that the roving bandits would have nothing to steal, if the tribe had not been already specializing... (ie, practicing civilization)

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

this is so amazingly backward. Government cant exist with out leaching resources from society. Reseources can not be leached from a society that does not have surplus production. A society can not have surpluss production with out specialization and the division of labor. Specialization and the division of labor are the hallmarks of civilization.

civilization necessarily comes before government because government has no means with which to sustain its self with out civilization.

Society cannot aggregate resources until they have protection from anarchist bandits and warlords. Tribes paying for good governance is far cheaper and more efficient than losing everything to roving barbarians. That's why people choose to live in the protection of castle walls. Eventually, the castle walls are replaced by roads (i.e. Rome) and standing armies that police the environs. Finally feudalism evolves into empire and into modern civilization.

Anon136

legendary

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1217

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.