Topic: End of Governments - page 7. (Read 6579 times)

Quote from: Severian on March 16, 2013, 03:24:55 PM

Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization.

Are you claiming that government = civilization?

I am not an anthropologist. But yes, In the modern era I will argue that civilization requires a government for protection at the very minimum. Since you are not supporting your argument and are merely fabricating fallacious attacks, I will return you to my ignore list and you may continue to troll in your free-market fairyland.

Looked to me as though he was asking you to clarify your position.

I am curious, though, why protection must be forced upon people, if it's so necessary. Would people not voluntarily seek protection?

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 04:12:49 PM

Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization.

Are you claiming that government = civilization?

I am not an anthropologist. But yes, In the modern era I will argue that civilization requires a government for protection at the very minimum. Since you are not supporting your argument and are merely fabricating fallacious attacks, I will return you to my ignore list and you may continue to troll in your free-market fairyland.

zeroday

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Not killing? A quick google search will disprove that...

And what do you suppose happens if you object to the robbing?

I mean that 0.000001% chance of being killed in "civilized" word is better against 0.01% chance in non-civilized. Oh, and of course the chance to survive will be much higher if you pay tributes to local tribal leader

myrkul

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Quote from: zeroday on March 16, 2013, 03:59:17 PM

Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 03:47:55 PM

In the "civilized" parts of the world, the hungry crowds of lazy poor people select thugs to do their robbing and killing for them.

Mostly robbing, but not killing, and, for sure, you have much more chances to survive in the US than somewhere in Africa or A-stan. That's the difference between civilized world and non-civilized

Not killing? A quick google search will disprove that...

And what do you suppose happens if you object to the robbing?

zeroday

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Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 03:47:55 PM

In the "civilized" parts of the world, the hungry crowds of lazy poor people select thugs to do their robbing and killing for them.

Mostly robbing, but not killing, and, for sure, you have much more chances to survive in the US than somewhere in Africa or A-stan. That's the difference between civilized world and non-civilized

myrkul

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Quote from: zeroday on March 16, 2013, 03:40:59 PM

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity? Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

Don't you think that this way you are just paying for your safety?
Imagine how these hungry crowds of lazy poor people rob and kill you and other wealthy people around just for food and drugs. Even your shotgun won't help as they are also armed and outnumber you.
And this scenario is very typical for non-civilized part of our world...

In the "civilized" parts of the world, the hungry crowds of lazy poor people select thugs to do their robbing and killing for them.

zeroday

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Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity? Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

Don't you think that this way you are just paying for your safety?
Imagine how these hungry crowds of lazy poor people rob and kill you and other wealthy people around just for food and drugs. Even your shotgun won't help as they are also armed and outnumber you.
And this scenario is very typical for non-civilized part of our world...

Severian

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Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization.

Are you claiming that government = civilization?

myrkul

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Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 01:22:29 PM

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 01:22:29 PM

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

That's an interesting theory.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

What you think you are is irrelevant. Before the extant of public commons, there was no civilization. Without civilization, you are merely food.

myrkul

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Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity?

Of course I do.

Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 01:14:38 PM

Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

No. That's why I am an anarchist.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: cbeast on March 16, 2013, 01:10:53 PM

Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 10:44:12 AM

Quote from: cbeast on March 16, 2013, 01:10:53 PM

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

My original question was not if the market can meet needs, but whether there is such a thing as a free-market without a publicly created infrastructure. Do you feel you have done that?

Is there a market need for infrastructure? Do people want infrastructure? Are they willing to pay?

Do you want roads, police, courts, firemen, water, and electricity? Are you willing to live near people that would not pay for those because they can get what they want by force instead? Would you pay for them as well?

myrkul

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Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 10:44:12 AM

Quote from: myrkul on March 16, 2013, 10:44:12 AM

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

My original question was not if the market can meet needs, but whether there is such a thing as a free-market without a publicly created infrastructure. Do you feel you have done that?

Is there a market need for infrastructure? Do people want infrastructure? Are they willing to pay?

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: ralree on March 13, 2013, 10:28:41 AM

Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

My original question was not if the market can meet needs, but whether there is such a thing as a free-market without a publicly created infrastructure. Do you feel you have done that?

flaab

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Quote from: Jobe7 on March 13, 2013, 06:25:54 AM

People getting paid in bitcoin can avoid tax if they spend/keep their bitcoin in the bitcoin world

Wrong - that's called tax evasion. Receipt of bitcoin is like receipt of gold - it must be reported as income to the tax authority in your nation.

I never volunteer to pay a thief.

myrkul

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Bitcoin allows tax avoidance because it's impossible to prove how much a person has, even if they publish an address.

FirstAscent

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Just a quick note: Bitcoin only allows you to avoid taxes because it's not well adopted. In everyone's fantasies here, with currency collapse and full adoption of Bitcoin, then you'll be back to square one and paying taxes again.

Stop your delusions.

Severian

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Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Big Pharma also has quite the stranglehold on the "free" American economy. There's more drugs on the black market in the US than there is in Afghanistan.

Free markets will always look like the wild west to anyone with a predilection to centralization and the dull order of life under the State.

myrkul

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Most roads are actually built by private contractors... Paid for with public funds.

I suppose if no one stole the money to pay these people, no one would ever pay for roads to be built, right?

If a market need exists, someone will be willing to provide it. If no one is willing to pay for it, no market need exists.

That's a lot of ifs. Evidentiary facts would be better.

Those aren't "ifs," they're if-then statements. As for evidence to back up those statements, you need only look at the black market. People want drugs. They are willing to pay for them. (There is a market need for drugs.) Other people are willing to provide these drugs, even at significant personal risk.

Drug trafficking is an excellent example of a secure, industrious, and well-adjusted population.

No, it isn't. Well, not "secure" or "well adjusted", but they certainly are industrious.

Well, if a drug cartel run country is your best evidence of a free-market economy, then you can have it. Try Afghanistan, you might like it there.

Did I say it was? You wanted evidence that the market acts to fill market needs. I provided that.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.