Ethereum: 2nd gen cryptocurrency with contract programming, "dagger" hashing - page 17.

Quote from: HinnomTX on January 16, 2014, 07:33:43 PM

How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Good analogy. To me, as a potential investor, the IPO looks slightly overpriced. But, there's huge potential future dilution, AND there's a pre-mine. This looks like a raw deal. No BTCs for these guys b/c they are taking BTC AND Ethers. It's a double dip. They should work to boost their stock (Ethers) to align their interests with ours. I'm just going to mine some Ethers and see how they price out in 5 years. This offers the lowest risk and lowest capital costs (assuming you already have the computing hardware).

td services

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

black swan hunter

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around.

I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap.

Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins. Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility.

I favor PoS next gen coins as well, like DAC concept. I'd rather Ethereum was pure PoS, but really like the rest of the project.

I liked the NXT a lot and it was on my hotlist since it had code in beta, even though the docs were sketchy and with the cloak and dagger drama going on. My big beef is how the pre-sale was handled (having the door slammed my face-hard to be objective), and their continued refusal to acknowledge the real reason for ending the sale without advance notice. Regardless of how good the tech is, the character of the NXT founders is questionable.

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 07:33:20 PM

Quote from: jimhsu on January 16, 2014, 07:21:37 PM

How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

Haha, I like that. Do you have investment in Nxt? I will give you some if you want to create an account and PM me. That way you can at least see why the coin doesn't belong on the scam list.

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: msin on January 16, 2014, 06:55:35 PM

Quote from: jimhsu on January 16, 2014, 06:45:58 PM

... divide the IPO price by 1000 and multiply every other number by 1000. There, the coin is now "cheap". Better yet, denominate everything in terms of "wei" -- "wow, I can have a quadrillion coins for a satoshi? Deal!"

I'm still puzzled as to why the initial offering price is at all important here.

Because it's a POW coin. People want to know if it makes more sense to buy it or mine it.

Absolutely doesn't matter. Mining output scales as the amount of initial issued currency. The only thing that matters is how much BTC is invested in the first place, not what denomination that BTC is converted to.

Now if mining output did not depend linearily on the amount of issued currency (if it were 50 coins/block like BTC, for instance), then there would be a difference, and your point would be correct.

Are you joking? Do I spend 1BTC for 8k Ether during IPO, or do I wait and mine because I think there will be a supply of 600mil Ether after the IPO, and 30Mil Ether will be mined, and I can earn 8k no problem. Also, the price per Ether is very important when considering how many resources will go into mining in the first year.

HinnomTX

hero member

Activity: 525

Merit: 500

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around.

I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap.

Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins. Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility.

td services

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

black swan hunter

How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

Haven't decided. Still need to see details.

As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.

jimhsu

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 264

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 07:16:58 PM

Quote from: msin on January 16, 2014, 06:15:17 PM

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 16, 2014, 03:48:05 AM

(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)

Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC?

The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners.

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

"They" you are referring to were people who took a risk to donate to an unknown developer's project, regular forum members like you and me, the founder didn't sell a thing, in fact, he has only given away millions of Nxt to developers. The markup you are talking about is still more than 100x cheaper than Ethereum IPO price. I bought 1M nxt for 1BTC. Your reference to the scamcoin poll makes you look ignorant, you and I both know those are envy polls. Where is Ethereum on that list? BCNext ended the Nxt IPO early because he didn't want to collect hundreds of BTC.

You're partially correct - BCNext (and/or come-from-beyond) didn't want to collect more BTC, maybe even hundreds of BTC, which would reduce their percentages of the distribution. If they had just announced the early close because they collected enough BTC, they probably would not have collected much over 5 or 10 more BTC since it was a high risk investment and not have caused animosity among those interested but not yet invested.

People tend to focus on price per share in a pre-sale, but what they should really look at is the price for a given percentage of the total pre-sale. If the shares are PoW mined, then the net rate of issuance of new shares is also a factor.

How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

It would appear so; however don't disregard network effects. An increase of n BTCs invested might dilute the stake linearily, but assuming non worst-case allocation of those coins (in other words, the investments come from new members), increase the exposure of the coin exponentially.

kovand11

member

Activity: 61

Merit: 10

This coin, is a scam in my eye. To much premine, too high starting price. This coin simply not worth that much.

jimhsu

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 264

Quote from: msin on January 16, 2014, 06:55:35 PM

Quote from: jimhsu on January 16, 2014, 06:45:58 PM

... divide the IPO price by 1000 and multiply every other number by 1000. There, the coin is now "cheap". Better yet, denominate everything in terms of "wei" -- "wow, I can have a quadrillion coins for a satoshi? Deal!"

I'm still puzzled as to why the initial offering price is at all important here.

Because it's a POW coin. People want to know if it makes more sense to buy it or mine it.

Absolutely doesn't matter. Mining output scales as the amount of initial issued currency. The only thing that matters is how much BTC is invested in the first place, not what denomination that BTC is converted to.

Now if mining output did not depend linearily on the amount of issued currency (if it were 50 coins/block like BTC, for instance), then there would be a difference, and your point would be correct.

Thus if economic rational theory is correct, the price per ether (whatever it is - again, it's not important) should be the same during the IPO period (if sufficiently long - see NXT for a counterexample), right after the IPO period, and at the start of mining, assuming mining/market starts instantaneously after the conclusion of the IPO.

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 07:16:58 PM

Quote from: msin on January 16, 2014, 06:15:17 PM

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 16, 2014, 03:48:05 AM

(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)

Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC?

The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners.

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

"They" you are referring to were people who took a risk to donate to an unknown developer's project, regular forum members like you and me, the founder didn't sell a thing, in fact, he has only given away millions of Nxt to developers. The markup you are talking about is still more than 100x cheaper than Ethereum IPO price. I bought 1M nxt for 1BTC. Your reference to the scamcoin poll makes you look ignorant, you and I both know those are envy polls. Where is Ethereum on that list? BCNext ended the Nxt IPO early because he didn't want to collect hundreds of BTC.

You're partially correct - BCNext (and/or come-from-beyond) didn't want to collect more BTC, maybe even hundreds of BTC, which would reduce their percentages of the distribution. If they had just announced the early close because they collected enough BTC, they probably would not have collected much over 5 or 10 more BTC since it was a high risk investment and not have caused animosity among those interested but not yet invested.

People tend to focus on price per share in a pre-sale, but what they should really look at is the price for a given percentage of the total pre-sale. If the shares are PoW mined, then the net rate of issuance of new shares is also a factor.

How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?

td services

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

black swan hunter

Quote from: msin on January 16, 2014, 06:15:17 PM

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 16, 2014, 03:48:05 AM

(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)

Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC?

The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners.

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

"They" you are referring to were people who took a risk to donate to an unknown developer's project, regular forum members like you and me, the founder didn't sell a thing, in fact, he has only given away millions of Nxt to developers. The markup you are talking about is still more than 100x cheaper than Ethereum IPO price. I bought 1M nxt for 1BTC. Your reference to the scamcoin poll makes you look ignorant, you and I both know those are envy polls. Where is Ethereum on that list? BCNext ended the Nxt IPO early because he didn't want to collect hundreds of BTC.

You're partially correct - BCNext (and/or come-from-beyond) didn't want to collect more BTC, maybe even hundreds of BTC, which would reduce their percentages of the distribution. If they had just announced the early close because they collected enough BTC, they probably would not have collected much over 5 or 10 more BTC since it was a high risk investment and not have caused animosity among those interested but not yet invested.

People tend to focus on price per share in a pre-sale, but what they should really look at is the price for a given percentage of the total pre-sale. If the shares are PoW mined, then the net rate of issuance of new shares is also a factor.

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: jimhsu on January 16, 2014, 06:45:58 PM

... divide the IPO price by 1000 and multiply every other number by 1000. There, the coin is now "cheap". Better yet, denominate everything in terms of "wei" -- "wow, I can have a quadrillion coins for a satoshi? Deal!"

I'm still puzzled as to why the initial offering price is at all important here.

Because it's a POW coin. People want to know if it makes more sense to buy it or mine it.

jimhsu

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 264

... divide the IPO price by 1000 and multiply every other number by 1000. There, the coin is now "cheap". Better yet, denominate everything in terms of "wei" -- "wow, I can have a quadrillion coins for a satoshi? Deal!"

I'm still puzzled as to why the initial offering price is at all important here.

vtbean79

member

Activity: 82

Merit: 10

Looks interesting

FreddyFender

full member

Activity: 215

Merit: 100

Shamantastic!

Quote from: GigaCoin on January 16, 2014, 06:10:14 PM

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 16, 2014, 03:48:05 AM

(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)

Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC?

The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners.

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

That poll is so ridiculous i voted for Bitcoin just for kicks.

BitcoinjustforkicksCoin is a scam.. coin..
I would like to get molecular and GigaCoin's opinion on what ETH is all about? Opinions count.

x0rcist

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

For what i read about this;

Ethereum was born from Invictus and Bitshares or maybe better this guy was actually one of the founders (CEO) of Bitshares. After an argue he said goodbye and started Ethereum with all flaws fixed that are in Protoshares/Invictus/Keyhotee. So basicly this should be Bitshares/Keyhotee on steroids. Definatly one to watch!! It will be announced on the upcoming bitcoin conference if i good remember.

msin

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1004

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 16, 2014, 03:48:05 AM

(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)

Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC?

The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners.

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

"They" you are referring to were people who took a risk to donate to an unknown developer's project, regular forum members like you and me, the founder didn't sell a thing, in fact, he has only given away millions of Nxt to developers. The markup you are talking about is still more than 100x cheaper than Ethereum IPO price. I bought 1M nxt for 1BTC. Your reference to the scamcoin poll makes you look ignorant, you and I both know those are envy polls. Where is Ethereum on that list? BCNext ended the Nxt IPO early because he didn't want to collect hundreds of BTC.

GigaCoin

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 251

Giga

Quote from: td services on January 16, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: molecular on January 16, 2014, 03:48:05 AM

(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)

Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC?

The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners.

It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price).

NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-what-are-the-biggest-scamsht-coins-out-there-361286 .

That poll is so ridiculous i voted for Bitcoin just for kicks.

td services

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

black swan hunter