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Topic: Everything you wanted to know about Grayscale BTC Trust but were afraid to ask! - page 10. (Read 16372 times)

legendary
Activity: 4298
Merit: 3209
I guess the SEC will approve all of them, all at the same time.
Approving one of them before the other it will mean picking a winner, something the SEC isn’t clearly intended to do as they would be subject to an handful of potentially disruptive litigations.
So I guess Grayscale discount is a good indicator for all the ETF approvals.

Yes, as I have said, it might be good for the followers of this thread to have something similar to the wall observer thread where you update the information on GBTC's percentage on net asset value vs. bitcoin.

You can see it here: GBTC Discount or Premium to NAV
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1429
I guess the SEC will approve all of them, all at the same time.
Approving one of them before the other it will mean picking a winner, something the SEC isn’t clearly intended to do as they would be subject to an handful of potentially disruptive litigations.
So I guess Grayscale discount is a good indicator for all the ETF approvals.

Yes, as I have said, it might be good for the followers of this thread to have something similar to the wall observer thread where you update the information on GBTC's percentage on net asset value vs. bitcoin.

I reckon an update twice a month might be enough. This would certainly open much discussion and speculation. It might also help some people to know when to buy bitcoin hehehe.
legendary
Activity: 4186
Merit: 4385
SEC wil wait for the appeals court to release guideance on what is an what is not an acceptable reason to decline, so they can use that specific reason to decline grayscale again

I am having trouble with your expectations regarding what the Appeals court is going to be doing in its guidance.


They already told the SEC that it has failed to provide any kind of a reason and so therefore the Appeals court has told the SEC and the world that the SEC's failure to provide an any kind of a reason that is not arbitrary/capricious is insufficient.

Why would the guideline tell the SEC what a good reason might be?  That makes no sense.
to stop the SEC making up a random new reason thats not even policy just to say they gave a reason

its not just about that the SEC has to give A reason.. its about that reason has to be justified too(non arbitrary)
legendary
Activity: 3696
Merit: 10155
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
It does not need to be the approval of Grayscale's ETF, I reckon it will be any ETF because the approval of 1 will be the approval of much of them.
once one gets approved, all the others will update their applications using a copy of the accepted template. thus fast approval

Could be.

i still think blackrock will get approved before grayscale as the

could be

SEC wil wait for the appeals court to release guideance on what is an what is not an acceptable reason to decline, so they can use that specific reason to decline grayscale again

I am having trouble with your expectations regarding what the Appeals court is going to be doing in its guidance.


They already told the SEC that it has failed to provide any kind of a reason and so therefore the Appeals court has told the SEC and the world that the SEC's failure to provide an any kind of a reason that is not arbitrary/capricious is insufficient.

Why would the guideline tell the SEC what a good reason might be?  That makes no sense.

Generally speaking the precedence that comes from the Chevron case, I believe, is that agencies have a wide range of reasonableness and courts are not going to second guess them as long as they provide a reason and any reason that does not devolve into arbitrary/capricious or otherwise in violation of various public policy norms.. Now that the court has proclaimed that the SEC had already acted arbitrary/capricious, the SEC has to come up with some kind of a reason that makes sense in the context of things rather than making it seem that they are just making shit up.. and why would the court give them guidance in regards to how to do their job in terms of thse kinds of matters, does not make a lot of sense to me.

Chevron remains the standard but the SEC already got themselves into a bit of a pickle by what the court had already ruled their behavior to be, which is arbitrary/capricious and really lacking any kind of a reasonableness .. and the court would not even need to agree with the SECs reasons as long as they can come up with something that makes some kind of sense and does not devolve into again being arbitrary, capricious or in violation of some other public policy norms.

Your overall point about the possible stalling tactics of the SEC to use the muddiness of trying to figure out what to do might be enough of a reason to grant Blackrock (and maybe others) before Grayscale, even though that could end up getting them into trouble if it appears that delay Greyscale is a kind of retaliation rather than also having some kind of rational basis that makes some kind of sense in the whole scheme of things.

right now with grayscale and DCG in hot water due to the whole genesis, gemini, FTX saga. i dont see how SEC can see confidence in grayscales fund management.. where as blackrock has decades of experience

Yes, it seems reasonable that the SEC could have some doubts in regards to a lot of the outstanding and ongoing litigation around DCG... and they likely need to attempt to take that into account in one direction or another, which could cause some uncertainties in terms of approving Grayscale.. .. so surely there remains ongoing uncertainties regarding how the SEC might end up playing these various matters in light of a variety of deadlines... and they likely already have some ideas where they want to go.. but then various court rulings do have to be taken into account and sometimes even some of the new applications that relate to Ethereum products (not wanting to necessarily consider that the shitcoins are any kind of a major factor even though, we cannot always know how the SEC might relate these various products, litigations and applications in order to justify what it is that they are doing, what they are saying they are doing and/or planning to do)
legendary
Activity: 4186
Merit: 4385
I guess the SEC will approve all of them, all at the same time.

different applications have different deadlines
the SEC dont want a swarm of businesses suddenly throwing reports and actions at them. they first want to see a experienced service operating to gauge expectations of SEC workload of receiving reports. and how much auditing and overwatch is needed. and then open the floodgates to the rest if others can follow the lead
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2177
Crypto Swap Exchange
I guess the SEC will approve all of them, all at the same time.

Had always thought the opposite to be honest. Start with something like BlackRock and see how it goes before approving the others. First mover advantage goes to the favourite.

Approving one of them before the other it will mean picking a winner, something the SEC isn’t clearly intended to do as they would be subject to an handful of potentially disruptive litigations.

Personally I'm not convinced SEC will care that much, if we take in consideration how Grayscale was unfairly rejected, so I don't see why they would suddenly care about things now.

But regardless I think the GBTC discount is a good reflection of overall ETF sentiment, as I imagine the discount will near evaporate once first ETFs are approved, even if Grayscale are awaiting theirs.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
I guess the SEC will approve all of them, all at the same time.
Approving one of them before the other it will mean picking a winner, something the SEC isn’t clearly intended to do as they would be subject to an handful of potentially disruptive litigations.
So I guess Grayscale discount is a good indicator for all the ETF approvals.
legendary
Activity: 4186
Merit: 4385
It does not need to be the approval of Grayscale's ETF, I reckon it will be any ETF because the approval of 1 will be the approval of much of them.

once one gets approved, all the others will update their applications using a copy of the accepted template. thus fast approval

i still think blackrock will get approved before grayscale as the SEC wil wait for the appeals court to release guideance on what is an what is not an acceptable reason to decline, so they can use that specific reason to decline grayscale again

right now with grayscale and DCG in hot water due to the whole genesis, gemini, FTX saga. i dont see how SEC can see confidence in grayscales fund management.. where as blackrock has decades of experience
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1429
@fillippone. With speculations that bitcoin ETF approval is near, it might be good to update the thread weekly on how much GBTC's discount or premium on net asset value. I reckon this will be a good indicator to use if Barry's insiders think ETF approval is getting closer.

It does not need to be the approval of Grayscale's ETF, I reckon it will be any ETF because the approval of 1 will be the approval of much of them.
legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 1490
Maybe someone has already seen the message that Arkham platforms managed to link more than 1,750 bitcoin addresses with Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, in total there are 627,779 BTC worth about $16.28 billion, in any case, analysts say so.
If this is true, then you can track the addresses here https://platform.arkhamintelligence.com/explorer/entity/grayscale

Source:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/grayscale-bitcoin-trust-alleged-wallet-addresses-released-arkham
https://twitter.com/ArkhamIntel/status/1699461141066359180

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Grayscale wrote to the SEC urging them to approve an ETF conversion of GBTC:

Re: Grayscale Bitcoin Trust


Quote
But now that the Court of Appeals has spoken, there is no available rationale that would distinguish a bitcoin futures ETP from a spot bitcoin ETP under the legal analysis previously adopted by the Commission in rejecting spot bitcoin ETPs. This is because, as the Commission has consistently explained:
[A]n exchange that lists bitcoin-based ETPs can meet its obligations under Exchange Act Section 6(b)(5) by demonstrating that the exchange has a comprehensive surveillance-sharing agreement with a regulated market of significant size related to the underlying or reference bitcoin assets.7

The request appears legitimate to me, thus giving the SED some leeway for an orderly exit from this Mexican standoff.

 
legendary
Activity: 4186
Merit: 4385
i know its old news now.. but something i forgot to highlight about DCG

https://web.archive.org/web/20221004205949/https://dcg.co/portfolio/#f oct 04th 2022
https://web.archive.org/web/20221022144405/https://dcg.co/portfolio/#f oct 22nd 2022
https://web.archive.org/web/20221117094013/https://dcg.co/portfolio/#f nov 17th 2022
https://web.archive.org/web/20221122132601/https://dcg.co/portfolio/#f nov 22nd 2022

scroll to the last listing of companies beginning with F
notice something??  [FTX]

with SBF's case next month where the courts would want to claw back losses from parties involved with it.. we may see some affects on DCG which can impact grayscale

its said DCG paid a settlement to the FTX administrators of $175m via genesis with a deal to not pursue genesis any further legally. but i believe DCG had more FTX exposure via other sister companies of the DCG umbrella

edit
just found this
https://grayscalelitigation.com/

yep seems grayscale has direct exposure to the FTX contagion totally separate to the genesis drama
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23

Sending BTC to an exchange indicates the intention to sell. So, while some hypothetical whales may have been buying BTC just before the announcement, actual whales were intending to sell.

Let imagination run wild, sending BTC to an exchange might actually mean using those coins as a collateral for long positions.
Not sure if this is the case, but only an example of a dubious interpretation of facts.
legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 1490
Against the background of a court decision favorable to Grayscale, the founder and partner of Pomp Investments Anthony Pompliano and former SEC chair Jay Clayton expressed their opinion. And they completely coincide in the assessment that SEC approval of a spot ETF is not only likely, but also inevitable.

CNBC Television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf0iSEK-RDI
                         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WudbiBkZBC0
legendary
Activity: 4298
Merit: 3209
No shit Sherlock,
Market is manipulated?

Whales bought $388M of Bitcoin just before the Grayscale-SEC news

Quote

“Whales & sharks may have known a thing or two about the outcome of the #Grayscale and #SEC lawsuit, with 10-10K $BTC wallets accumulating a collective $388.3M in $BTC the day leading up to the news. They were handsomely rewarded with a +6% price jump,” Santiment posted on X.


I would also expect whales to do their own shit, but it actually would surprise me if they had insiders on this. But I am just a simple guy.

More conspiracy nonsense. Saying that changing amounts of BTC at an address indicates buying or selling is a stretch, especially when it isn't a specific address but all addresses holding a range bitcoins.

People may be whales, but addresses with large amounts of BTC are not. Addresses are not people.

Furthermore, that article also says this:
Quote
Was there a hint of manipulation here? Earlier, Santiment had retweeted (re-X’d) analyst Ali Martinez’ highlight of the fact that 30k BTC was sent to exchanges just before the Grayscale victory news.

Sending BTC to an exchange indicates the intention to sell. So, while some hypothetical whales may have been buying BTC just before the announcement, actual whales were intending to sell.

Furthermore, the article implies that the purpose of the movement of BTC to the exchanges was to manipulate the price, and yet the graph shows that it had absolutely no effect on the price. So, no manipulation.

Now, I'm not saying that there is no manipulation of any kind. I just think that spreading and promoting dubious evidence actually hurts the case against manipulation. It's both crying wolf and chicken little.

legendary
Activity: 4186
Merit: 4385
SEC has 45days to appeal

So what happens if they don't appeal after 45 days. Hypothetically? Has there been a date set for make another decision for example? Haven't heard anything other than speculation.

usually SEC has to accept or decline applications with certain deadlines and there are usually 3-4 deadlines..
the court will offer final guidance on the next steps, which for grayscale will be any alterations that could aid the filing. and for the SEC a deadline to investigate and accept/decline(decide)

but for the SEC they will have to have a really good lawful reason to decline as i believe the court will tell the SEC the only lawful reasons the SEC could decline at the new deadline yet to be set

if the court do define lawful reasons the SEC could decline. this information can also be useful for grayscale and any ETF applier so they know which holes to avoid
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2177
Crypto Swap Exchange
SEC has 45days to appeal

So what happens if they don't appeal after 45 days. Hypothetically? Has there been a date set for make another decision for example? Haven't heard anything other than speculation.

In other news for anyone had wasn't aware, the SEC has got some big decisions to make in coming days, which could indirectly affect the Greyscale discount further:

Quote from: CoinTelegraph
Investment firm Bitwise will learn if its ETF will win the SEC’s approval on Sept. 1 while BlackRock, VanEck, Fidelity, Invesco and Wisdomtree will all be awaiting the SEC’s decision for their funds by Sept. 2, according to several SEC filings.

Meanwhile, Valkyrie is set to hear back from the SEC on Sept. 4.

Gonna go ahead and guess they also rejected these as well, as the recent decision won't have changed their mind in the last few days.

Either that or a moonshot in on the horizon and Greyscale will get their ETF conversion approval sooner than later.

Also: Spot Bitcoin ETF Approval Odds Rise to 75% (Bloomberg)

Seems like people think ETFs are actually going to happen in very near future. I remain sceptical though, maybe just cos it's been 10 years of in the making.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
No shit Sherlock,
Market is manipulated?

Whales bought $388M of Bitcoin just before the Grayscale-SEC news

Quote

“Whales & sharks may have known a thing or two about the outcome of the #Grayscale and #SEC lawsuit, with 10-10K $BTC wallets accumulating a collective $388.3M in $BTC the day leading up to the news. They were handsomely rewarded with a +6% price jump,” Santiment posted on X.


I would also expect whales to do their own shit, but it actually would surprise me if they had insiders on this. But I am just a simple guy.
legendary
Activity: 4186
Merit: 4385
grayscale CEO interview today
yahoo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH0zQMRAGLs
cnbc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRMimIPbbyw
bloomberg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYHRMOdg6A0

he says similar stuff in all, but more detail in the yahoo/cnbc version(i ordered the list in most interesting first)

highlights:
SEC has 45days to appeal
grayscale will during that period be in contact with SEC to resolve issues, hope to push ETF forward
court will release final mandate of operational next steps grayscale and SEC should follow
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2177
Crypto Swap Exchange
In the market GBTC skyrocketed to a 15% discount.

Discount still around 25% unless mistaken? Currently $BTC around $27.5K and $GBTC around $20.5K (27.5 x 0.75 = 20.63)

It is up around 15%+ today though as of writing.

It doesn't work exactly like that.
It's very volatile right now, but on a back of the envelop basis:

at 10:52 NYT
BTC: 27,400 USD
GBTC: 20.50 USD
ENTITLEMENT: 0.00090094 BTC (as of yesterday, no time to adjust that).

So every GBTC share contains 0.00090094 BTC, so it is worth 0.00090094*27,400 USD=24.69 USD.
Market Price is 20.50 USD, so the discount is 17% at that time.


Ah yes thanks for explaining, forgot it's about the number Bitcoin's in the trust vs number of shares...

Makes me think the 17% discount could evaporate sooner than later.

The discount is at the minimum levels of last year.

It's less than that even. Yesterday was 18% and last year lowest was 20% based on this caluclation.

It could evaporate only on ETF conversion, otherwise I see a little discount as possible.

It could still evaporate before based on an ETF approval. Bare in mind that there was a considerable premium for many years, usually between 10-40%, probably an average of 15-20% on average, so clearly isn't always rational. However based on how long there has been a discount for, over 2 years now, then generally agree it's unlikely to return to parity or become a premium again (if ever) until after ETF launch.

I otherwise assume that an ETF for GBTC would stabilise the premium/discount ratio, as arbitrage would keep it close to 0, but maybe this isn't how it works...

Definitely one of the best trades I have been advising was being long GBTC vs MSTR, which performed decently in this scenario even if ma Microstrategy was more resilient than I thought.

Is this since the start of the year or something? I just checked the ratio between the two and MSTR has performed just as well as GBTC. Otherwise since 2020 MSTR has still performed better than both GBTC and BTC. The discount evaporating for GBTC would certainly give it an edge though over MSTR though. GBTC has so far been a better investment than BTC this year, with +30% on top of BTC's gain.
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