Topic: "Failure to Understand Bitcoin Could Cost Investors Billions" (Bitcoin's flaws) - page 16. (Read 43254 times)

That doesn't sound right at all.  A solution with a different payout address would no longer be valid.  Also they are spending hash power so it's not parasiting.  At most it will cause the pools luck to appear to be bad but since P2P users have altruistic reasons it isn't likely to cause them to switch.  51% attack is an overblown problem anyways.  As you stated yourself government actors have better tools to combat bitcoin  and for private attackers it is simply not economically viable.

Hey "No" voters, what is the point of Bitcoin if it ends up a top-down currency? We could have just used Paypal instead.

Either you disagree with my logic that it is already nearing top-down control, or you ignore reality (forsake the ideals of a decentralized currency) because you want to earn money on Bitcoin's appreciation.

I have a feeling it won't work out well for you because socialism gets very destructive at its end game cycle.

Why are you so scared that some people want their privacy that you must put your FUD spin on the poll results to try to create discouragement?

Because socialists are never satisfied if they don't control everything. Control freaks. People like you scare the shit out of me. And you outnumber us freedom lovers. And that is why the world is headed into totalitarianism. Remember I told you so when it gets really bad in 2017 to 2020.


FUD. I already explained you are not required to buy the coin. You can use Bitcoin if you want optional anonymity (which means no anonymity as explained in footnote [2] in the OP, anonymity is a nearly all or nothing proposition).

Also 'mandatory' is not entirely accurate. Any user can reveal his identity there is no technological way to stop that. Rather I am proposing the anonymity is automatically on by default.

And democracy is a lie. So many people are going to have to relearn the painful lesson that democracy always ends up back at totalitarianism. I linked to the power vacuum of democracy upthread.


The bolded text displays your disdain for hackers and people who love freedom. The hacker people who created the internet by lying to the government which has provided all the prosperity and advancement you are benefiting from today on the internet. I was one of those people who helped create decentralized publishing on the internet. Yet you disrespect us and piss on us, and that is exactly what socialism does. It destroys itself.

Amazingly FUD way to characterize the vast research and technical acumen I have displayed in this thread.

I don't scare you because I am not a socialist trying to control you. And you believe your government can crush us (but you are subconsciously worried else you wouldn't be wasting your time in this thread). You scare me, because you are not satisfied unless you can FUD everything and have everything your way. You can't just leave us alone and let us make our coin and you use Bitcoin because in democracy everyone has to share and share equally. No person can be allowed to go his own way.


Democracy leads to totalitarianism at the end game where the debt peaks. You didn't read the power vacuum link I provided to you. If you are not going to do your homework and study, how can I teach you anything new.

We created the internet to function decentralized (i.e. anarchism = freedom) not top-down votes (i.e. democracy = debt slavery).

Analogously see the upthread technical explanation I made comparing Bitcoin's PoW (decentralized) to PoS (top-down control).


Again you show complete disrespect (and probably due to a lack of understanding) for the people who created the internet.

And you characterize as "nutcases" people who have studied throughout history the repeated failure of socialism and just want their privacy. This is precisely the kind of voracious, pit-bull attitude that prevails in totalitarianism. Look at what former POTUS Bush said, "you are with us, or against us". Look at the way Hitler worked the population into a frenzy to attack those who were "not the same as us".


Thank you. Best wishes for you as well.

Evidently. And if 1 in 3 (even in this minimal and quite partial environment) makes you happy, count us both as VERY happy... dumb ass.

Note I have deleted the original post because he continues to write very noisy and illogical sentences. To be fair, I have quoted and responded to the meat of his argument.


Irrelevant. That wasn't my point. I was providing an example of activity at homes (versus store fronts) that the government couldn't tax even if it wanted to. When we download software or coming designs to be printed in our homes on 3D printers, the government can't tax it if the vendors choose to be anonymous with an anonymous currency. Right now that is not an option because there does not exist a reliably anonymous payment option.


Again that is irrelevant to the point I made. Now you are trying to argue that anonymity is bad because you think prosecution of content theft is more important than preventing the horrifically peaking socialism (200 year debt high, most western nations taxing over the Laffer limit, etc) from taxing us into another Dark Age as has happened numerous times throughout human history.

Fact is that if you provide content at low enough price, people will rarely bother to go out of their way to steal it. They want the official content. And there is a 7 billion person market on the internet, no need to charge $19 for a movie. Make it 50 cents. You will still get rich.


Bullshit. You are ignorant of what is technically possible.


Total bullshit. So I guess you hated paper cash too, because it enabled many anonymous activities.

That is freedom dumbass. And when you lose your freedom like they did until Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc.. then you will learn the hard way not to trust the end game of peaking socialism and collectivism.

I suppose you are not aware that Obama can declare any citizen a terrorist and without proof they can take away all your due process and kill you with a drone. Yet you claim the government will respect my political views, etc.. No way. The Constitution is dead. The socialism has taken over and we are headed into totalitarianism.


For the love of Christ, you are one clueless example of why we need anonymity. Frogs like you will boil in the pot all the while singing the praises of the next totalitarian (perhaps it is Obama, we need to see how it progresses).


Did anyone force you to buy and use that altcoin?

Mandatory only for that altcoin dumbass.

Also 'mandatory' is not entirely accurate. Any user can reveal his identity there is no technological way to stop that. Rather I am proposing the anonymity is automatically on by default.


Bullshit. Those figures are accurate. Did you even bother to check my sources?

Just go along your merry way to blissful pot boiling. You are done here in this thread. You made your point. I strongly disagree with you. You don't need this altcoin. It isn't for boiling frogs like you. It is for the 33% who voted yes.

Definitely not since it is so easy for the centralized pools to have their miners compute shares for a competing P2Ppool but withhold block solutions from the P2Ppool (and submit them for themselves) thus parasiting the P2Ppools of revenue while not impacting the revenue of the centralized pool. So centralized pools which wanted to eliminate P2Ppools could do so (in theory).

I will quote myself where I answered this in the past.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3715641



After making those posts, I remember I eventually studied P2Ppool in more detail and don't remember changing my opinion. I think I posted about it again with additional details, but I can't find the latter post.

Let me add the oblivious shares fix I mentioned in the OP can not be applied to a pool which is decentralized. Many readers may not understand well this very technical issue. Try reading the link I provided in the OP to Meni Rosenfeld's white paper. Perhaps at some point in the future I can take some time to write a layman's explanation of this issue.

Don't you think that P2P mining pool can solve the problem of regulation or big corporations takeover?

Do you have any idea how exhausting it is to deal with these sort of posts that are not focused on technical facts? Your intentions may or may not be a sincere attempt to raise the point about the way sheep Bitards (don't) think or it may also be a propaganda ploy.

I come from the world of programming and working with enthused co-developers where we spend our time being happy and enjoying our work. Slogging through discussion on this forum really challenges my peace-of-mind and patience. I will relish the day after which I no longer need to speak or write about this.


There is a much easier way for the government to take over Bitcoin than 51% attack and selfish mining. Simply tax the coin and per footnote [2] all coin is tainted regardless if you used Tor or not, so in effect regulate every pool and exchange. Regulation can accomplish much of the same goals as takeover. Then later (ramp up the regulation to drive the independents bankrupt and) the large corporations beholden to the government buyout the pools and exchanges, and then the drift towards cartels and corporate-fascism.

The lack of a feature in Bitcoin to limit the concentration of mining in a few large pools is an egregious flaw. But this was planned from the beginning as Satoshi predicted takeover of mining by large corporates and the core developers also reiterated that in this forum in the past. It is not very hard to gain a picture that Bitcoin was planned from the outset to not be a hacker-like decentralized internet paradigm but rather a mainstream integration into the taxaholic socialism. I used to target my business to that paradigm too. The problem with that socialism is peaking and heading for the cancer death syndrome where it taxes itself to death. We are no longer in 1999, and now is it 2014.

It is very simple. When the governments start confiscating nearly all of the wealth especially targeting millionaires, people will decide they need anonymity. I don't have to convince anybody of anything. Some of those with significant net worth will run scared from Bitcoin.

Those who have big gains in Bitcoin, will instead perhaps comply with the government and give up most of their gains (to tax + confiscation) in return for a nice profit (e.g. give up 90% of the gains and still have 10 bagger).

Yet the easiest marketing advantage is cpu-only mining. There is really nothing that needs to be said. People will mine cpu-only especially the mining client is very easy to run!   Now all the Bitards get off my fucking lawn. You are dealing now with real commercial programmers who have experience in making popular commercial software. All of the underhanded propaganda tactics I am seeing from fanboys are not going to work in this case. You can see the vote on the poll can't you.

P.S. the Bitards who want to think they are smart, much better they miss out on early mining opportunity. Perfect. I hope I read their never ending excuses about security of Java, etc.. Meanwhile the people of the world will be chugging along mining and mining, since the opportunity for the average person to download a client and instantly mine Bitcoin with their PC went "poof its gone".

Hi again, AnonyMint.

I'd like to reiterate that scattershot is weak strategy: people see the weakest arguments among your volley (51% attack, selfish mining) and assume (rightly or wrongly) that you're in the business of building paper tigers.

That day is already here.  In the USA it is estimated that a person commits approximately three felonies a day.

I agree except Bitcoin is failing to protect against regulation, taxation, centralization, and thus eventually complete control by the government.

That is why I proposed an altcoin without Bitcoin's flaws.

Thank you for prompting me to explain a bit. I am very much overloaded with tasks but it is was important to explain what I meant enough that you have a taste of what I would put in such a white paper.

Ok. Waiting for the whitepaper.

I really wish people would grow up. Liberating ourselves of the onerous obligations and !imitations induced on our economy by our forced participation in the Federal Reserve's monetary monopoly is at hand, and tards want to allow the federal government to regulate it! Ha! The Bitcoin network is the single largest concentration of computing power on Earth. It's "owners" are everyone involved in mining and transacting in Bitcoin. Therefore everyone else (including any governments that think they have a right to regulate it)  can go pound sand as far as I am concerned. Bitcoin has thus far endured at least 3 major similar challenges, and has come back better, stronger, and more secure every time!  It is also worth noting that the detection, assessment and resolution of ALL SUCH PREVIOUS EVENTS, TOOK PLACE SANS ANY INVOLVEMENT OF A FEDERAL OR STATE AGENCY!

The members of the network have a vested interest in the proper function of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. If left to us many of the useless governing bodies we employ just to justify taxing yourselves will lose their meaning and purpose.....Boohoo. I think the private market can figure out better uses for those funds...Don't you?

-Oz

I see FUD errors in this whitepaper:

http://www.links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf#page=3


In Satoshi's PoW the miners don't have to reach any centralized census. They ALL agree to use the same protocol (else they are not making Bitcoin block chain). But there is no centralized collection of a vote. They are all free to disagree about which block solution was found first. The longest chain wins, but this concensus is completely decentralized.

http://www.links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf#page=4


We know exactly how much power exists that will mine at the current difficulty and market price, and it is precisely the amount that was mining. To go backwards and rewrite the entire blockchain takes not just 51% of the hash rate, but takes asymptotically 100% of the hashrate as the blockchain goes asymptotically to infinite length.

The author set up this strawman to support the requirement of knowing who all the miners are in his Proof-of-stake (PoS) proposal. Then he commits the entropy error that I said will always occur for non-PoW, in that he requires to randomize the order of the PoS miners ("participants") but of course he can't do it without a centralized vote thus it isn't random at all.

Fail. Sorry.

That is not taxing the value of the content that was put on the DVD. The price of the DVD at a few pennies is only a small fraction of the value of the content, such as a movie which sells for $19 in your local store.


Not when we are anonymous. That is one of the main points of this proposed altcoin to provide stronger, mandatory anonymity that defeats any trail.

Not because we want to cheat, but because without it, we very likely go into a Mad Max Dark Age as the society owes $150 trillion in global total debt and I estimated upthread only $241 trillion in global net worth but much of that $91 trillion balance is concentrated among the upper 1% and much illiquid such as real estate. So the socialism is going to tax + confiscate itself into the abyss.

And there are other legitimate reasons to be anonymous, such as I don't want to be discriminated against for my political views, my eating habits, etc..

There will come a day in a Mad Max world where you have to break the laws in order to survive. Go ask those people in history who survived the repeating failures of socialism.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating any specific activity, nor I am giving tax or law advice. Consult your own professional advisor. I am merely sharing my opinions.

OK, this will surely not see the light because, well, you will delete it, of course, but.... what a load of crap! Of course the government can -and actually DO, have been doing it for years- tax you when you make a copy of something on a DVD. It does already, for example, by taxing the physical DVD. But also the internet providers are and will be watching your activities. And any goods that are transacted will be taxed -just like they are now- whether you choose to sell it for bitcoins, sex, or give them away for free. Knowledge age of whatever. And you do know that everything online leaves a trail, don't you? Or what you mean is that you can break the law and hope the government doesn't catch up with it? Oh well, enough of this crap, really.

Nonsense. If the new 20nm ASICs are not profitable, then eventually they will quit being used and users will continue mining with the older technology. Either the old or the new will be profitable, because the unprofitable will eventually be forced to quit.

Organize your point better or you may find your next post is deleted. I don't want this thread filled with nonsense posts.


FACT is that the same thing happened twice already and the price continued to stay on the trend line. I am repeating what I already wrote in my prior reply to you. You can't say it makes no sense. You could say that no one knows the future for sure. You are treading very close to getting banned from this thread with such an illogical use of the very ad hominem "no sense". I am trying to be patient with you, because I want to address all view points.


You have not read all the linked threads in footnote [2] in the OP.

The virtual economy coming in the Knowledge Age is not physical, e.g. downloading a design and printing it at home on your 3D printer. Just as the government can't tax you when you make copy of something on a DVD. There is no place for the authorities to physically go and find out who bought what from whom.


Yes Bitcoin will be taxed + confiscated because it can't remain even partially anonymous due to for example footnote [2] in the OP.

I already explained in the linked Mad Max thread why socialism can lead to a Mad Max Dark Age. That is bad. Go reply in that thread if you want to argue that point. Don't move that debate over here in this thread.

Also refer to the Economic Devastation thread.

Already mentioned in the OP:


Thanks for articulating the issue in more detail.

Irrelevant to the trust in gold today. Gold is not trusted because it might be finite someday in the distant future (we will all be dead and we won't be stuck to living on earth, who said we have to store it all on earth). I will quote myself again.



Nope. The masses will love the centralized coin, because fees will be more stable and lower, transactions will be approved in seconds instead of 10 minutes, anonymity will gone so they can hunt down all the illegal activities to remove tainted coin threats to users, etc.. Remember the majority loves socialism and the government. And thus the value of Bitcoin will be rising, and no one will want to cause a fracturing of that ecosystem and lose that rising value. So the colluding (carteled) pools can make the changes slowly and the frogs will boil in the pot happily agreeing to these changes.

Welcome to the power vacuum of democracy. The leaders win and take all.


Your fantasies aside, that in fact is not what is happening in reality today. It is fact that hashing power is becoming concentrated in a few major pools.


I already did. Because there is nothing finite. The Second Law of Thermodynamics assures us the trend of entropy is always towards maximum. You just try to find one finite bound of anything in the universe. You won't be able to find it. Even if you count the number of a certain species, you can't guarantee with 100% certainty it will remain less than some bound (e.g. changes that you can't predict such finding another planet which can host).


Actually there are people making a decent living mining gold individually in Alaska now. Ditto here in Mindanao where I am. I was offered to buy gold that is locally refined from the small miners.