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Topic: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin - page 4. (Read 28355 times)

member
Activity: 81
Merit: 10
March 19, 2013, 07:28:46 PM
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/rulings/pdf/fincenruling2003-9.pdf

This is interesting:

Quote
To the extent that you are exchanging and transporting your own money on behalf of yourself, you are not doing business as a money transmitter or a currency dealer or exchanger for purposes of the BSA, and thus, are not required to register with FinCEN as an MSB.


Does this still hold true?
sr. member
Activity: 746
Merit: 253
March 19, 2013, 07:23:22 PM
Well the problem is the rules aren't clear.  The guidance simply says (simplified) virtual currency exchangers are money transmitters.  Ok well the problem is the pages and pages of documents related to money transmitters have absolutely nothing to do with buying and selling virtual currencies.

One example.  Money transmitters are required to collect and record information on money transmissions in excess of $3,000.  If I buy 100 BTC from you and pay you $5,000 by bank wire.  Who is the sender?  Who is the receiver?  In a classic money transmitter scenario (the one in all FinCEN courses, and documents) the money transmitter is the middle man.   Sender -> Money Transmitter -> Receiver.  The MT records the information both both entities.  Of course even complying with the regulation becomes impossible if as it doesn't even make sense in this case.  Is the MT both the MT AND the sender?  Are you the sender and receiver?  Who knows.  Get it wrong and you could be fined up to $250,000 for each inaccuracy.

The "guidance" is nothing of the sort.  It is more like "Um you guys are money transmitters and stuff no figure out how to be compliant or go to jail".

You have a reasonable argument that you are not a money transmitter.

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The term “money transmission services” means the acceptance of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency from one person and the transmission of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency to another location or person by any means.

Since you refuse to pay third parties, the only way it could be claimed that you are a money transmitter is if the money is sent to another location.  Is depositing money into someone's bank account transmitting money to another location?  If so, arguably it is the bank that is transmitting the money and not you.

Maybe if you mail out checks, you could insist on only sending to the customer's primary residence, and to no other location.

OTOH, localbitcoins sellers are in the clear, as the money doesn't go to any other location during an in-person exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 250
Merit: 250
March 19, 2013, 07:21:04 PM
A US business selling goods for BTC is a vital element of the BTC economy. The business must convert the BTC to USD.
1. does converting it at a registered exchange solve the FinCEN requirements (apparently NOT! getting USD for BTC MAY require registration and this would kill the BTC economy)
2. is mtgox registered at FinCEN (or any other exchange) ?
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 1722
March 19, 2013, 07:14:13 PM
Although, presumably if your earnings are purely in Bitcoin, you'd have to exchange some of them into USD to pay income tax.

Why bother? If you only use BTC for payments you can stay anonymous enough to be safe from govt extortion.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
March 19, 2013, 07:10:23 PM
Just to clarify, is there anything in this that affects the direct exchange of bitcoins for goods and services?

No. FinCEN seems to be focusing on the exchange of virtual currency (bitcoin) for "real money". The direct exchange of bitcoin for goods and/or services was specifically excluded from FinCEN registration requirements.

Great! So a purely Bitcoin sub-economy is still OK. Although, presumably if your earnings are purely in Bitcoin, you'd have to exchange some of them into USD to pay income tax.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
March 19, 2013, 06:58:26 PM
Yes, me. I wrote up a quick take for the Bitcoin Foundation here: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=152

Patrick, do we also run up against the issue of people laying themselves open to sanctions if they take intermediate steps to avoid these provisions - such as purchasing something with BTC they have mined but then selling their purchases?  As the original source of the BTC isn't a "serious crime" or predicate offence (which is key in relation to how FATF defines money laundering), then it's hard to argue such a strategy is money-laundering per se and yet my instinct is that taking such steps could well be an offence in its own right (especially if done repeatedly).
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
March 19, 2013, 06:55:26 PM
Everywhere else there is a distinction between virtual currency and real currency. This line just says "currency".   It is quite vaque in that it could say "if the person accepts (Bitcoin) from one person and transmits it(Bitcoin) to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of...value (that substitutes for currency)."  Would that mean that every node on the network transferring bitcoins from one person to another is an "exchanger and a money transmitter"?

I think if it just says "currency", they are referring to the FinCEN definition of currency, which excludes "virtual currency".
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
March 19, 2013, 06:51:23 PM
Just to clarify, is there anything in this that affects the direct exchange of bitcoins for goods and services?

No. FinCEN seems to be focusing on the exchange of virtual currency (bitcoin) for "real money". The direct exchange of bitcoin for goods and/or services was specifically excluded from FinCEN registration requirements.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
March 19, 2013, 06:50:06 PM
Just to clarify, is there anything in this that affects the direct exchange of bitcoins for goods and services?

The guidance specifically states that is NOT a MSB or an activity regulated by FinCEN.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
March 19, 2013, 06:48:30 PM
Just to clarify, is there anything in this that affects the direct exchange of bitcoins for goods and services?
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
March 19, 2013, 06:46:29 PM
The bottom line to all this is that bitcoin shouldn't be thought of as a means of evading the law.
This is absolutely right but as a currency its only real uses (99% of the time. I am using bitcoins for legal purchases right now for my business but is a very specific and almost nonexistent circumstance) are for illegal things/evading the law. It offers no benefits to a consumer vs traditional money/ways to manage money (credit/debit cards).

No chargebacks is not a benefit to consumers. The transactions take way too long. The exchange rate is way too volatile/inconsistent. You are absolutely right that it shouldn't be but when is the community going to start modifying bitcoin to move it away from this?
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
March 19, 2013, 06:39:16 PM
Whenever I bring up Bitcoin to people most of them say something like "they'll find a way to make it illegal".

I can now say, "the US government has acknowledged Bitcoin and has put regulations in place for businesses exchanging dollars for bitcoins but are perfectly fine with people using bitcoins to buy and sell things"
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 10
March 19, 2013, 06:34:35 PM
The bottom line to all this is that bitcoin shouldn't be thought of as a means of evading the law.

"They" don't seem to care too much about what happens inside our sandbox - especially since the blockchain is public record - but they do care when it goes near fiat or out of public view (eg: into an exchange account for off-blockchain transactions or conversions).

Remember.. Cash is hard to track.  The blockchain as a transaction record in public view is a dream come true.

"They" are probably trying to figure this all out.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
March 19, 2013, 06:31:47 PM
It's probably worth pointing out that the requirement to register with US Treasury also applies to those outside the US who do business as a money transmitter in the US.

...

This provision doesn't require that you act as a money transmitter on a regular basis or that you be an organised/licensed business concern.  It has a lot of potential to be interpreted very broadly.

You're absolutely right, if you provide "Exchanger" services in the US you would come under FinCEN jurisdiction. Also, right that this rule could be and has been very broadly interpreted.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
March 19, 2013, 06:20:22 PM
That they are discussing bitcoin at all is a clear victory. People should be investing more than ever as they say no such thing as bad publicity. Bitcoin is going up so people hearing about it through any avenue and for any reason is a solid win as they will start paying attention and seeing it jump $10 is sure to get them involved.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
March 19, 2013, 06:18:31 PM
Quote
c. De-Centralized Virtual Currencies

            A final type of convertible virtual currency activity involves a de-centralized convertible virtual currency (1) that has no central repository and no single administrator, and (2) that persons may obtain by their own computing or manufacturing effort.

            A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter. In addition, a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency.

This part gets ignored but I am a bit confused by it.

Everywhere else there is a distinction between virtual currency and real currency. This line just says "currency".   It is quite vaque in that it could say "if the person accepts (Bitcoin) from one person and transmits it(Bitcoin) to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of...value (that substitutes for currency)."  Would that mean that every node on the network transferring bitcoins from one person to another is an "exchanger and a money transmitter"?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
March 19, 2013, 06:17:31 PM
This is good news. With clear rules the economy can really begin to prosper.

The problem is the rules aren't clear.  The guidance simply says (simplified) virtual currency exchangers are money transmitters.  Well that is all well and good except the guidance doesn't provide any guidance on complying with the BSA.  Just registering as a MSB is easy.  Anyone (company or individual) can do it in about five minutes by filling out a 4 page form. 

The problem is compliance.  Registering is saying "yes I am in compliance" and if you aren't well that is lose all your money or jail time.  The problem is that "compliance" isn't possible if you can figure out how to comply. 

Just on example of the inconsitencies and vagueness of applying money transmitter rules/requirements to currency exchangers. Money transmitters are required to collect and record information on money transmissions in excess of $3,000.  If I buy 100 BTC from you and pay you $5,000 by bank wire.  Who is the sender?  Who is the receiver?  In a classic money transmitter scenario (the one in all FinCEN courses, and documents) the money transmitter is the middle man.   Sender -> Money Transmitter -> Receiver.  The MT records the information both both entities.  Is the MT both the MT AND the sender?  Are you the sender and receiver?  Are we both MT and one of the roles?  Who knows.  There are some plausible "guesses" but get it wrong and you could be fined up to $250,000 for each inaccuracy.

The "guidance" is nothing of the sort.  Paraphrased version of FinCEN "guidance":
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Um you guys are money transmitters and stuff, so figure out how what we expect you to do without us telling you what we expect you to do and BTW if you get it wrong or we later change our mind and decide you got it wrong well you go to jail.

Below is the regulation in question, now figure out what needs to be recorded.  

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(e) Nonbank financial institutions. Each agent, agency, branch, or office located within the United States of a financial institution other than a bank is subject to the requirements of this paragraph (e) with respect to a transmittal of funds in the amount of $3,000 or more:

(1) Recordkeeping requirements. (i) For each transmittal order that it accepts as a transmittor's financial institution, a financial institution shall obtain and retain either the original or a microfilm, other copy, or electronic record of the following information relating to the transmittal order:

(A) The name and address of the transmittor;

(B) The amount of the transmittal order;

(C) The execution date of the transmittal order;

(D) Any payment instructions received from the transmittor with the transmittal order;

(E) The identity of the recipient's financial institution;

(F) As many of the following items as are received with the transmittal order: 1

1  For transmittals of funds effected through the Federal Reserve's Fedwire funds transfer system by a domestic broker or dealers in securities, only one of the items is required to be retained, if received with the transmittal order, until such time as the bank that sends the order to the Federal Reserve Bank completes its conversion to the expanded Fedwire message format.

( 1 ) The name and address of the recipient;

( 2 ) The account number of the recipient; and

( 3 ) Any other specific identifier of the recipient; and

(G) Any form relating to the transmittal of funds that is completed or signed by the person placing the transmittal order.

(ii) For each transmittal order that it accepts as an intermediary financial institution, a financial institution shall retain either the original or a microfilm, other copy, or electronic record of the transmittal order.

(iii) For each transmittal order that it accepts as a recipient's financial institution, a financial institution shall retain either the original or a microfilm, other copy, or electronic record of the transmittal order.

(2) Transmittors other than established customers. In the case of a transmittal order from a transmittor that is not an established customer, in addition to obtaining and retaining the information required in paragraph (e)(1)(i) of this section:

(i) If the transmittal order is made in person, prior to acceptance the transmittor's financial institution shall verify the identity of the person placing the transmittal order. If it accepts the transmittal order, the transmittor's financial institution shall obtain and retain a record of the name and address, the type of identification reviewed, and the number of the identification document ( e.g., driver's license), as well as a record of the person's taxpayer identification number ( e.g., social security or employer identification number) or, if none, alien identification number or passport number and country of issuance, or a notation in the record of the lack thereof. If the transmittor's financial institution has knowledge that the person placing the transmittal order is not the transmittor, the transmittor's financial institution shall obtain and retain a record of the transmittor's taxpayer identification number ( e.g., social security or employer identification number) or, if none, alien identification number or passport number and country of issuance, if known by the person placing the order, or a notation in the record of the lack thereof.

(ii) If the transmittal order accepted by the transmittor's financial institution is not made in person, the transmittor's financial institution shall obtain and retain a record of the name and address of the person placing the transmittal order, as well as the person's taxpayer identification number ( e.g., social security or employer identification number) or, if none, alien identification number or passport number and country of issuance, or a notation in the record of the lack thereof, and a copy or record of the method of payment ( e.g., check or credit card transaction) for the transmittal of funds. If the transmittor's financial institution has knowledge that the person placing the transmittal order is not the transmittor, the transmittor's financial institution shall obtain and retain a record of the transmittor's taxpayer identification number ( e.g., social security or employer identification number) or, if none, alien identification number or passport number and country of issuance, if known by the person placing the order, or a notation in the record of the lack thereof.

(3) Recipients other than established customers. For each transmittal order that it accepts as a recipient's financial institution for a recipient that is not an established customer, in addition to obtaining and retaining the information required in paragraph (e)(1)(iii) of this section:

(i) If the proceeds are delivered in person to the recipient or its representative or agent, the recipient's financial institution shall verify the identity of the person receiving the proceeds and shall obtain and retain a record of the name and address, the type of identification reviewed, and the number of the identification document ( e.g., driver's license), as well as a record of the person's taxpayer identification number ( e.g., social security or employer identification number) or, if none, alien identification number or passport number and country of issuance, or a notation in the record of the lack thereof. If the recipient's financial institution has knowledge that the person receiving the proceeds is not the recipient, the recipient's financial institution shall obtain and retain a record of the recipient's name and address, as well as the recipient's taxpayer identification number ( e.g., social security or employer identification number) or, if none, alien identification number or passport number and country of issuance, if known by the person receiving the proceeds, or a notation in the record of the lack thereof.

(ii) If the proceeds are delivered other than in person, the recipient's financial institution shall retain a copy of the check or other instrument used to effect payment, or the information contained thereon, as well as the name and address of the person to which it was sent.

(4) Retrievability. The information that a transmittor's financial institution must retain under paragraphs (e)(1)(i) and (e)(2) of this section shall be retrievable by the transmittor's financial institution by reference to the name of the transmittor. If the transmittor is an established customer of the transmittor's financial institution and has an account used for transmittals of funds, then the information also shall be retrievable by account number. The information that a recipient's financial institution must retain under paragraphs (e)(1)(iii) and (e)(3) of this section shall be retrievable by the recipient's financial institution by reference to the name of the recipient. If the recipient is an established customer of the recipient's financial institution and has an account used for transmittals of funds, then the information also shall be retrievable by account number. This information need not be retained in any particular manner, so long as the financial institution is able to retrieve the information required by this paragraph, either by accessing transmittal of funds records directly or through reference to some other record maintained by the financial institution.

(5) Verification. Where verification is required under paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section, a financial institution shall verify a person's identity by examination of a document (other than a customer signature card), preferably one that contains the person's name, address, and photograph, that is normally acceptable by financial institutions as a means of identification when cashing checks for persons other than established customers. Verification of the identity of an individual who indicates that he or she is an alien or is not a resident of the United States may be made by passport, alien identification card, or other official document evidencing nationality or residence ( e.g., a foreign driver's license with indication of home address).

newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
March 19, 2013, 06:13:59 PM

I read the "guidance" as being this type of individual would have to register with FinCEN since they would be "a person engaged as a business in the exchange of virtual currency for real currency, funds, or other virtual currency.” (depending, as you say, on the definition of 'engaged as a business').

Why do you come to the alternative conclusion of MAY rather than MUST - is it just the uncertainty around the definition of 'engaged as a business'?

Will

Thanks Will. I said "May" rather than "Must" for a couple of reasons.

1. "Engaged as a business" is a whole can of worms that FinCEN left untouched for now. As you correctly pointed out.

2. This "Guidance" is FinCEN's way of identifying a few common facts and circumstances that they definitively view as money transmission. They don't directly say that receipt of money would place you in the category of "Exchanger" but one could easily infer that from rest of the guidelines. Therefore, I went with "may" be required to register not "must". I try to use my "musts" sparingly Smiley
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
March 19, 2013, 06:05:20 PM
It's probably worth pointing out that the requirement to register with US Treasury also applies to those outside the US who do business as a money transmitter in the US.

Quote
(2) Foreign-located money services business. Each foreign-located person doing business, whether or not on a regular basis or as an organized or licensed business concern, in the United States as a money services business shall designate the name and address of a person who resides in the United States and is authorized, and has agreed, to be an agent to accept service of legal process with respect to compliance with this chapter, and shall identify the address of the location within the United States for records pertaining to paragraph (b)(1)(iii) of this section.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=532af3285642b30728036e7a8059b718&rgn=div8&view=text&node=31:3.1.6.1.6.3.5.9&idno=31

This provision doesn't require that you act as a money transmitter on a regular basis or that you be an organised/licensed business concern.  It has a lot of potential to be interpreted very broadly.
hero member
Activity: 767
Merit: 500
March 19, 2013, 05:53:45 PM
Yes, me. I wrote up a quick take for the Bitcoin Foundation here: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=152

Good blog, thanks for the write up.

Quote
2. If a person receives real money in exchange for their bitcoin they MAY have to register with FinCEN.

I read the "guidance" as being this type of individual would have to register with FinCEN since they would be "a person engaged as a business in the exchange of virtual currency for real currency, funds, or other virtual currency.” (depending, as you say, on the definition of 'engaged as a business').

Why do you come to the alternative conclusion of MAY rather than MUST - is it just the uncertainty around the definition of 'engaged as a business'?

Will
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