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Topic: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin - page 9. (Read 28359 times)

legendary
Activity: 960
Merit: 1028
Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.
March 18, 2013, 11:07:49 PM
#88
Why would you set up a decentralised exchange that could be hosted on multiple computers in multiple jurisdictions if you were going to comply with all their endless rules & regs?, especially if you are in multiple countries it will be infeasible to comply. What would be the point of the decentralisation?
The exchange needs cryptographic objects to buy and sell and trade.

The ones who provide those objects (which, at launch, will probably include me) ought to be aware of the laws that will apply to them - whether in order to comply, or merely so that they know what the risks are if the country in which they live finds them out.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
March 18, 2013, 10:54:12 PM
#87
JP morgan and Mastercard run the Electronic Benefit Transfer in the US

JPM controls about half of the EBT cards in the US. If the US govt. lets JPM fail, the 25% or so of Americans that depend on JPM's EBTs would be out of luck. Imagine LA, Chicago, NYC, etc. within two weeks of no EBTs. Cities would burn. JPM has the government, and Americans, by the short hairs.

It's simple extortion as any occupier does to a servant state: prop us up or we'll burn your cities.  



member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
March 18, 2013, 10:45:59 PM
#86
This is a "guidance" posting.  It's a summary of how FinCEN feels that the already-existing regulations apply to the situation.  In reality, nothing much has changed except for providing some clarity.  All that verification stuff is required and the fly-by-night folks have got some worrying to do.

I'm wondering how things like the Linden Labs stuff comes out of this.  They have centralized virtual currency with an administrator.   On the other hand, they have third parties doing conversions so they might be ok.



Interesting point.

It might make better business sense for them to switch to bitcoin.  Less paperwork.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:41:59 PM
#85

Here's one a few years older than BIS.




Did you know JP morgan and Mastercard run the Electronic Benefit Transfer in the US and are funding lobbying groups here in the UK to implement a similar benefits card, obviously profiting from the poor is not new for J P Morgan there are possibilities of such a program turning into an Orwellian nightmare as our economies falter and more people look to the state for help. When things like this are viewed in the context of increasing globalisation and militarisation of police you have to be a dumb ass to not consider the possibility of a conspiracy.


The Rothschild also became majority bond holders in the bank of England or Treasury as may have been at the time, I'm sure you are familiar with the popular story of the the Rothschilds faster courier / horseman bring back news of a British victory at the battle of Waterloo and how Nathan Rothschild promptly sold his bonds to create a fire-sale, thereby buying up everybody else's at much reduced price.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1222
brb keeping up with the Kardashians
March 18, 2013, 10:41:05 PM
#84
BTC-e.com is going to have to get all it's ducks in a row.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
March 18, 2013, 10:28:48 PM
#83
Me thinks somebody should get working on a decentralised exchange if its even technically feasible.
I've been considering how to do it. I'll need to obtain legal advice, though - there's one piece of it that will probably require a lawyer's advice (especially in the light of the guidance memo's mention of "e-precious metals").



/Facepalm 

Why would you set up a decentralised exchange that could be hosted on multiple computers in multiple jurisdictions if you were going to comply with all their endless rules & regs?, especially if you are in multiple countries it will be infeasible to comply. What would be the point of the decentralisation?

look at bitcoinx.  Imagine a bunch of different xxxcoin currencies, all trading on the same blockchain.  Most of them are backed by someone for something (like USD).  Now, you pay the backer 50 BTC (say) and he gives you 250 usdCoins.  First trap... are you "printing" (counterfeiting) USD b/c your usdCoins are not really USD?  Ok this may be avoidable by issuing DUScoins (some other name).  But you have the reputation paradox -- anyone with a good enough reputation and $ to back DUScoins doesn't want to risk going to jail.  And cannot be anonymous.

But let's say it happens.  Someday someone wants to return DUScoins to the backer and get real physical bills (or a wire transfer) of USD.  I'd imagine that that would be the moment when you as the backer need to comply with AML and insist on ID.  

BTW, IANAL.



sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
March 18, 2013, 10:27:25 PM
#82
Have you ever heard of the bank for international settlements?   

Here's one a few years older than BIS.

In 1895, the Rothschilds and JP Morgan Sr. saved the US government from bankruptcy by essentially taking over the gold supply for the government. Here's the contract:

Quote
US Congressional Record, Feb 1895

Contract

This agreement entered into this eighth day of February, 1895, between the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States, of the first part, and Messrs. August Belmont and Company, of New York, on behalf of Messrs. N. M. Rothschild and Sons, of London, England, and themselves, and Messrs. J. P. Morgan and Company, of New York, on behalf of Messrs. J. S. Morgan and Company, of London, and themselves, parties of the second part...

Banking families took over the American money supply in 1895. This isn't conspiracy, it's just simple fact as mentioned by even politicians of the day:

Quote
    “The active cooperation of Grover Cleveland in the manipulation of the currency by the Rothschilds of London and J. Pierpont Morgan of New York was very unpopular with the people. He was accused by both leading Democrats and Republicans of having betrayed his party and of having turned his back upon the Democratic platform of 1884 upon which he was elected.”

    Reminiscences of Senator William M. Stewart (Nevada, 1908)

BS talk about the Illuminati and UFOs are uttered by foolish people that will believe anything, even coincidences.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:22:45 PM
#81
The anonymous BTC<-->USD exchanges are going to go two ways: Those that comply with FinCen and ask customers for full information

Yup.  There's really no way the exchange could prove the withdrawal was not to a third party.


Doesn't such an exchange need to be "aware" that a fiat withdrawal was sent to a 3rd party for it to be violating any laws? If fastcash (for example) merely puts in its policy that 3rd party payments are "prohibited" (as they do), then wouldn't they be safe?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:20:40 PM
#80
Why would you set up a decentralised exchange that could be hosted on multiple computers in multiple jurisdictions if you were going to comply with all their endless rules & regs?, especially if you are in multiple countries it will be infeasible to comply. What would be the point of the decentralisation?

SN: "Hark! A tool with which you can create and move wealth away from the prying eyes of government and the grasping hand of banks is at hand! Use it wisely and create a new freedom for yourselves!"

Bitcoin user: "Gee, thanks! Which government agency do I contact to make sure it's ok to use?"

SN: "Nevermind. I'm going to leave now."

 Grin

It's tragic really.


I wish I was around in the earlier days to see SN reaction to his liberating gift being squandered.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:18:00 PM
#79


Wow.  Watch out!  The Illuminati might get you tonight!  It's funny how crackpots and bitcoin fit together so well.

wow ad hominem well done, did i mention the illuminati? if a certain well known banking family has run or been highly involved in certain banking areas for generations does this mean the previous poster believes in "conspiracy theories"? - no it is well known that certain families have dominated large financial institutions and have had very big influence in nations money supply.

Have you ever heard of the bank for international settlements?   
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
March 18, 2013, 10:15:09 PM
#78
Why would you set up a decentralised exchange that could be hosted on multiple computers in multiple jurisdictions if you were going to comply with all their endless rules & regs?, especially if you are in multiple countries it will be infeasible to comply. What would be the point of the decentralisation?

SN: "Hark! A tool with which you can create and move wealth away from the prying eyes of government and the grasping hand of banks is at hand! Use it wisely and create a new freedom for yourselves!"

Bitcoin user: "Gee, thanks! Which government agency do I contact to make sure it's ok to use?"

SN: "Nevermind. I'm going to leave now."
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
Hardhat Required in This Area
March 18, 2013, 10:09:42 PM
#77
Is there a lawyer in the house?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
March 18, 2013, 10:08:58 PM
#76
"An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency. "

This is absurd, no one can withdraw bitcoin from circulation, maybe they think bitcoin is the same as FED's money printing business

There will be better exchanges appear in bahamas and virgin island

That section doesn't apply to Bitcoin. That's in there for stuff like Linden Dollars (Second Life).
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Manateeeeeeees
March 18, 2013, 10:07:00 PM
#75


So does that mean that if I buy and sell my own bitcoins for USD on existing exchanges on behalf of myself, I'm not a money transmitter or exchanger?  I might ask for clarification from them on my business practices.


What about online bank account transfers, because of fractional reserve banking most of that money is purely made up and digitally created, so wouldn't it come under the same guidelines as "E-currencies"?

No
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Manateeeeeeees
March 18, 2013, 10:06:36 PM
#74
Oh that's so cute! that you believe in conspiracy theories!

It's even cuter that you believe in coincidences.

This ^^

Wow.  Watch out!  The Illuminati might get you tonight!  It's funny how crackpots and bitcoin fit together so well.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:05:47 PM
#73


So does that mean that if I buy and sell my own bitcoins for USD on existing exchanges on behalf of myself, I'm not a money transmitter or exchanger?  I might ask for clarification from them on my business practices.


What about online bank account transfers, because of fractional reserve banking most of that money is purely made up and digitally created, so wouldn't it come under the same guidelines as "E-currencies"?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:03:15 PM
#72
Oh that's so cute! that you believe in conspiracy theories!

It's even cuter that you believe in coincidences.

This ^^
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
March 18, 2013, 10:02:51 PM
#71
Me thinks somebody should get working on a decentralised exchange if its even technically feasible.
I've been considering how to do it. I'll need to obtain legal advice, though - there's one piece of it that will probably require a lawyer's advice (especially in the light of the guidance memo's mention of "e-precious metals").



/Facepalm 

Why would you set up a decentralised exchange that could be hosted on multiple computers in multiple jurisdictions if you were going to comply with all their endless rules & regs?, especially if you are in multiple countries it will be infeasible to comply. What would be the point of the decentralisation?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Manateeeeeeees
March 18, 2013, 09:44:38 PM
#70
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/rulings/pdf/fincenruling2003-9.pdf

This is interesting:

Quote
To the extent that you are exchanging and transporting your own money on behalf of yourself, you are not doing business as a money transmitter or a currency dealer or exchanger for purposes of the BSA, and thus, are not required to register with FinCEN as an MSB.

So does that mean that if I buy and sell my own bitcoins for USD on existing exchanges on behalf of myself, I'm not a money transmitter or exchanger?  I might ask for clarification from them on my business practices.
legendary
Activity: 960
Merit: 1028
Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.
March 18, 2013, 09:41:17 PM
#69
Me thinks somebody should get working on a decentralised exchange if its even technically feasible.
I've been considering how to do it. I'll need to obtain legal advice, though - there's one piece of it that will probably require a lawyer's advice (especially in the light of the guidance memo's mention of "e-precious metals").
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