FinCEN addresses Bitcoin - page 8. | Bitcointalksearch.org

BitPirate

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

RMBTB.com: The secure BTC:CNY exchange. 0% fee!

Quote from: jgarzik on March 18, 2013, 08:09:03 PM

With the standard "I Am Not A Lawyer" disclaimer, my read is that miners might be ok if

They sell bitcoins for fiat, via a licensed exchange
They purchase goods and services entirely within the bitcoin economy

The first is obvious. The US government is certainly within their rights to regulate the US Dollar, and ditto for other government fiat currencies.

The second is vastly positive. Stimulative for the bitcoin economy, encouraging a broad market of services priced in bitcoins.

And the third, more general point is implied: bitcoins are legal for regular users to possess and spend.

It is true that bitcoins were never illegal, but having a big government issuing an affirmative statement "bitcoins are legal" (in effect) is great news.

Agree. I read through the statement, interpret it this way, and see it as positive for BitCoin. The ground is clear and we know where we stand. I don't understand the pessimism about this. It looks like a very pragmatic and commonsense position they are taking.

phelix

legendary

Activity: 1708

Merit: 1020

Quote

Definitions of User, Exchanger, and Administrator
[...]
* A user is a person that obtains virtual currency to purchase goods or services.
* An exchanger is a person engaged as a business in the exchange of virtual currency for real currency, funds, or other virtual currency.
* An administrator [...not relevant...]

As long as I only occasionally sell my own Bitcoins I am not engaged as business. As I see it all of this does not affect private users.

Timo Y

legendary

Activity: 938

Merit: 1001

bitcoin - the aerogel of money

Quote from: Maged on March 18, 2013, 07:20:19 PM

Quote from: jimbobway on March 18, 2013, 06:57:35 PM

What is funny is we don't "create" the virtual currency. We mine it ("find it"). You can create fiat, but not bitcoins. This means FinCen's statement on de-centralized currencies don't apply to bitcoin.

No, bitcoins are created, not "found". You have to be naive to think otherwise.

Objects called bitcoins don't even exist in the protocol, so words like "created", "found", "issued", etc. are nothing but metaphors anyhow.

Metaphorically, I would agree that bitcoins are created but not by the miner alone. They are created by the collective effort of the network.

As a miner, how would I prove this in court? Easy. In order to "create" bitcoins, it isn't sufficient to find and publish a block. Even then, that block could still be orphaned. "Creation" is only complete once that block has been accepted into the consensus chain. That final step of "creation" is outside my control.

paulie_w

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 250

who are the lobbying groups involved, and who is paying them?

Gabi

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1008

If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Does this means we are now on the "they fight you" phase? Cheesy

Realpra

hero member

Activity: 815

Merit: 1000

Anyone can make laws, here is one:

Quote

"§1 C. All Bitcoin users are required to send one tenth of their transmissions to Realpra."

It even has fancy numbering!
If you don't, I can and will do.. the same as FinCEN, NOTHING.

Severian

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: redbeans2012 on March 19, 2013, 01:18:52 AM

I'll just offer to sell bitcoin wallets instead of bitcoins then, after the sale is made I'll make a donation into their wallet.

Or I'll sell you a pet rock for $500 and throw in 10 bitcoins on top of the sale.

Stephen Gornick

legendary

Activity: 2506

Merit: 1010

Quote from: cbeast on March 19, 2013, 01:08:40 AM

This is so full of loopholes.

Seriously.

So, looking at this:

Quote

In 2008, FinCEN issued guidance stating that as long as a broker or dealer in real currency or other commodities accepts and transmits funds solely for the purpose of effecting a bona fide purchase or sale of the real currency or other commodities for or with a customer, such person is not acting as a money transmitter under the regulations.

I interpret that to mean that if I buy your bitcoins and give you dollars, I am "effecting a bona fide sale of the real currency" (I sold you dollars). So to me that means I'm not a money transmitter.

redbeans2012

hero member

Activity: 887

Merit: 1000

I'll just offer to sell bitcoin wallets instead of bitcoins then, after the sale is made I'll make a donation into their wallet.

GideonGono

hero member

Activity: 2086

Merit: 501

★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!

Quote from: bitlizard on March 18, 2013, 07:41:22 PM

Anyone who thinks this is a good thing for bitcoin is in for a rude awakening.
I had my fingers crossed that bitcoin would get much further along before this happened.

+1

We are still too small to take on uncle sam just yet. Too much btc trade is concentrated in the US. Though as someone pointed out, this isn't a new law but rather FinCen clarifying what they think current regulations mean, we really need to get more decentralized such that uncle sam doesn't have us by the cojones.

Long Live BITCOIN!

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

After over four years this is the best they could come up with? This is so full of loopholes. Essentially this outlaws all barter and exchange of services. Nowhere does it mention any money. In fact, Bitcoin is not a virtual currency, it is getting help with a math problem. They will have to ban math tutoring. Perhaps the attack on the education system was planned all along.

SZD

newbie

Activity: 33

Merit: 0

The way I read this is that mining for bitcoins and selling those for USD is now illegal unless you are a corporation with the right licenses (which cost many thousands) and hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of dollars for bonding requirements, etc.

Qoheleth

legendary

Activity: 960

Merit: 1028

Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.

Quote from: bitlizard on March 19, 2013, 12:22:05 AM

So now I'm wondering; is anyone free to use bitcoin? Or, is it only for those granted special permission by FinCEN to use in a specified way?

I suppose if this community endeavors to interface with the establishment, it will have to get used to being constrained by its rules.

The way I read these rules, the only people affected by it are
1) miners who sell their mined cryptocoins for fiat, and
2) third parties who transfer someone else's cryptocoins as part of an exchange of fiat (i.e. exchanges, BitPay, &c).

redbeans2012

hero member

Activity: 887

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on March 19, 2013, 12:27:19 AM

Quote from: redbeans2012 on March 19, 2013, 12:19:18 AM

If you stick to selling under 1k a day

For clarity, that "$1K per-day" threshold is for use in determining if you would be considered a Money Service Business (MSB), and is not relevant in the discussion about whether or not an activity causes you to be considered a "money transmitter".

Quote

No activity threshold applies to the definition of money transmitter. Thus, a person who engages as a business in the transfer of funds is an MSB as a money transmitter, regardless of the amount of money transmission activity.

- http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html

Wow you are correct. Thats retarded.

Stephen Gornick

legendary

Activity: 2506

Merit: 1010

Quote from: redbeans2012 on March 19, 2013, 12:19:18 AM

If you stick to selling under 1k a day

For clarity, that "$1K per-day" threshold is for use in determining if you would be considered a Money Service Business (MSB), and is not relevant in the discussion about whether or not an activity causes you to be considered a "money transmitter".

Quote

No activity threshold applies to the definition of money transmitter. Thus, a person who engages as a business in the transfer of funds is an MSB as a money transmitter, regardless of the amount of money transmission activity.

- http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html

bitlizard

full member

Activity: 141

Merit: 100

So now I'm wondering; is anyone free to use bitcoin? Or, is it only for those granted special permission by FinCEN to use in a specified way?

I suppose if this community endeavors to interface with the establishment, it will have to get used to being constrained by its rules.

redbeans2012

hero member

Activity: 887

Merit: 1000

Quote from: TheButterZone on March 18, 2013, 11:16:40 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I don't think this is a big deal. As already pointed out this is just a clarification of rules that are already in place and it was pointed out it only applies to over $1000/day.

For practically everything but bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin->$0.01, no MSB/MT=criminal.

You are saying that any bitcoin transaction for cash even if its 1 penny requires you to register as a MT? I dont see that. If you stick to selling under 1k a day this doesn't effect you.

Maybe I'm reading your thing wrong.

repentance

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

Quote from: evilpete on March 18, 2013, 09:38:29 PM

This is a "guidance" posting. It's a summary of how FinCEN feels that the already-existing regulations apply to the situation. In reality, nothing much has changed except for providing some clarity. All that verification stuff is required and the fly-by-night folks have got some worrying to do.

I'm wondering how things like the Linden Labs stuff comes out of this. They have centralized virtual currency with an administrator. On the other hand, they have third parties doing conversions so they might be ok.

While it's true that it's a "guidance" statement, such statements generally indicate how they intend to apply regulations. The validity of their interpretation of regulations is rarely tested because most businesses can't afford the cost of the legal challenges which would be required. Services agree to civil forfeitures or to become licensed because the potential sanctions they would face if they lost a court challenge are absolutely staggering - in the millions of dollars per offence (and a single transaction can involve multiple offences).

We've possibly seen the end of the era of under-capitalised exchanges - and that's certainly not a bad thing. Compliance imposes a significant administrative burden, though, and that may ultimately be reflected in fees charged by exchanges.

Quote

Hmmm, so if I just buy bitcoins, and do not resell them later, I am neither a money transmitter nor an exchanger and thus is not subjected to any regulation?

The transaction itself may be reportable by whoever sells you the Bitcoins, though.

oakpacific

hero member

Activity: 784

Merit: 1000

Hmmm, so if I just buy bitcoins, and do not resell them later, I am neither a money transmitter nor an exchanger and thus is not subjected to any regulation? OK, thanks government! BUY!BUY!BUY!

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 1032

RIP Mommy

Quote from: ?? on ??

I don't think this is a big deal. As already pointed out this is just a clarification of rules that are already in place and it was pointed out it only applies to over $1000/day.

For practically everything but bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin->$0.01, no MSB/MT=criminal.

Topic: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin - page 8. (Read 28355 times)