Topic: FreeBitco.in-$200 FreeBTC⭐Win Lambo🔥0.2BTC DailyJackpot🏆$32,500 Wager Contest - page 753. (Read 555104 times)

They tell you what they do with the bitcoin you store there on the FAQ page of the EARN tab. I'm not sure how accurate all the information is because it hasn't been updated in a while and I remember TheQuin saying a few pages back that it is a little outdated but it at least gives you some idea of what is happening behind the scenes:

"How do you make money to pay us interest?

When you hold money in your FreeBitco.in account, we split it into 3 parts - the first part is used to cover user withdrawals, the second part is used to bankroll our MULTIPLY BTC game and the third part is used to expand our bitcoin mining operation (which is currently 9.065Petahashes or 0.007% of the total hashpower of the bitcoin network). We make a profit and assume the full risks of our businesses and in return for you saving your money with us, we give you a risk-free fixed rate of return."

They "might" make profit from the interest as well, you are leaving your money in there and that is an incentive, and the more money stays there would mean they could use that for more profits, they could use it for something, could be mining, could be something else, I don't know how because if I did, I would offer the same and get people to invest to me, but I can't, hence I do not think that I can give you the answers but I think they could still profit from it.

Same goes for FUN tokens, they could offer more stuff, better HE, better interest rate whatever and they could still profit from it. All I wanted to say is that it could be a "loss" because there are costs for the casino, not that I believe it is a loss for them, it is definitely a profit, and I think you are right that they wouldn't do something that doesn't profit them, I just wanted to say it must be profiting them something.

I'm glad to see you've changed your mind and you're not endorsing anymore the calculations you made above. According to you now, the current terms of the program could favor the users and could represent a kind of give away from Freebitcoin. That's a great news. I hope you've bought a decent amount of FUN tokens to take advantage of this great opportunity  

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I think almost every attempt to count profits of the site here has been oversimplified. Same as most of the TA in altcoin sections. I'm not an expert myself but I do know that token economics takes a lot of thought and it's really not as easy as most people make it out to be.

Also, what we're seeing now is really tight data in small timeframes. It's going to be a long time to come before we see the effects of utility overcome speculation for FUN.

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Yes, this is exactly where I was going with my point about the program has to generate more revenue than costs otherwise the benefits are going to be scaled back.  Look at the interest the site pays as an example. The site pays interest on deposits because it generates loyalty and keeps people playing on the site.  Paying interest is a loss leader, the site doesn't make a profit on paying interest, it relies entirely on the goodwill it builds to drive gambling activity which is how the site actually makes money.  If paying interest was costing more than the revenue the site generates from gambling, it would have to scale down the interest or discontinue it because it wouldn't make business sense to pay it.  That's my same point with the FUN program.  If the program doesn't generate extra revenue enough to offset the new added costs of running the program, then the benefits have to be scaled back to prevent the site from losing money on it, and if the benefits are scaled back, that increases the breakeven point for anyone who bought tokens and is trying to calculate when that decision makes financial sense for them (if ever).

Sounds like over simplification, we dont have all the facts available as its not a public company but any business is about maximising revenue efficiently.  The added cost discussed is relative to revenue but also cost of capital, its not a free benefit but via holding a token at cost and with some risk in the market extending out to a year to get full benefits. Tons of money in crypto is short term speculative, leveraged over night even 'hot money' is very common, hence why price can half surprisingly often despite long term gains over most of crypto.   My take is the strategy generally makes sense and I feel lucky holding some Fun as I won another 4000 rp today, overall I dont expect my holding tokens to cost me anything maybe I come out flat or quite probably I gain some benefits net; obviously its all at capital risk its really not free.

I partially agree with jaysabi. As I said a few pages ago, I think the rewards program seeks to build customer loyalty. It is clear that the casino has to cover the expenses and make a profit, otherwise it has to close. For me, what FB does with the program is to reduce its HE with certain users who hold a certain amount of tokens, but this reduction is compensated precisely by the tokens and loyalty.

People I think do not understand that casinos could technically make a "loss" in the sense that if gamblers lose 10k dollars per month on a casino but the operating costs (hosting, staff, developers, etc etc) is above 10k, that means casino is making a loss, not all losses are related to gambling, there are certain costs of a casino that is given every week, think of it like electricity bill of the offices, that has to come in every single month right?

There is no avoiding that, if you do not pay it that means your electricity will be cut and you won't even have connection, hence why it is obvious that there is always costs of it. This means gamblers will always lose in the long run because of house edge, but casino could lose as well if gamblers do not cover the operative costs of a place, not that freebitco.in is in any danger because last they said they were making enough to cover all costs for a while.

God, I know it's not simple for you, you've made that abundantly clear. You keep arriving at conclusions I didn't argue for, so that's on you for your inability to understand. You're conflating two different perspectives, one about how the program operates for the site and the other how it operates for people who hold FUN.  These are two different things but you keep trying to jam them together and you're confusing yourself. More troubling, you apparently can't understand how the FUN program increases operating costs for the site, and that's by far the simplest idea I've even brought up. If you can't understand that, there's absolutely no upside to continue to engage with you because it's just going to be you continually not understanding my two different points and arguing against them because you don't understand them.  Let's just agree to stop here.

It's not a simple concept jaysabi because you tried to prove above that will be a losing investment for players and for investors. If the 2 categories are going to lose money, there won't be any "cost" to cover for the house but only a net profit...
If I give you 1000$ and you give me back 600$ you won't have to chase a new income to refund me.
Moreover I don't understand why it would be a so called risk factor to offer more gambling.

I'll re-state it since you're having trouble comprehending. The site is adding operating costs by giving away perks related to FUN that it wasn't doing before.  There are perks people earn for holding FUN, regardless of if they're gambling.  The only way that makes sense is if FUN is going to bring in more gambling revenue than the costs of people who earn the perks without gambling.  I mean, it's a simple concept.  Not sure why you're struggling with it. 

Yes, it seems your post below is the key for finding out if the investment is worthful or not for each investor based on his btc balance. In my calculation I ignored the first year, but good that you counted the *losses* for not having the full bonus (25%) during the investment first's 12 months.

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Besides this profit you also have 5840 chances yearly (starting to count after the first year, 365 x 16) to hit something good at the WOF.
I believe someone won't hit the minimum prize every roll, so it may boost your earnings.

LOL only losers say that   But I don't understand why you are promoting a gambling site and posting in the gambling section if you think this way?  
If you were a regular gambler you would know that in addition of your winnings you're increasing your free claim rate until 80sats by claim, and earning RP points and lottery tickets when you gamble on freebitcoin.
And now, above that you'll earn a cashback on all your gambles in less than 10 days now.  
That's exactly the opposite of what you tried to prove above. You asserted above that will be a net loss for "investors" and players and now you're stating it will represent a loss for the house, sorry but that doesn't make sense...  

Yeah, since gambling is a net loss statistically, you wouldn't include that in a break even calculation.  If you're a regular gambler on the site, you are likely to have more tangible benefits under the program compared to where you would be without it.  However, since the marketing around FUN are geared towards an "investment" I calculated breakeven for investors.  

And the amount of extra earned interest is pretty small compared to the opportunity cost of buying FUN up front.  If you max out the FUN tier, you get an extra 25% of the interest rate after 1 year, so instead of earning 4.08% you're getting 5.10%.  The extra 1.02% is the interest benefit, again after 1 year.  It currently costs .325 btc to get that bonus (at the current 65 sats/FUN), and there's 1 month lag time before you start accruing any benefits, so it takes 13 months total before you'll be getting an extra 1.02% on your onsite balance.  In the meantime, you've given up 13 months of daily compounded interest on the .325 btc which comes out to (roughly) .01326 btc (might actually be more, I did a simple 4.08% calc, but can't remember if that already factors in the daily compounding or not).  You have to have a significant amount of additional btc onsite earning interest in order for the extra interest to pay back the lost interest income from holding FUN, in fact more than 1.3 btc for you to eventually earn back the interest you've lost with extra interest.

Examples of interest lost and gained at 2 and 3 btc onsite:

Years       Int. Lost    Interest Gained on 2 btc      Interest Gained on 3 btc
1.083        .0143           (Some)                                   (Some)
2.083        .0276           .0221 + some                          .0331 + some
3.083        .0409           .0424 + some                          .0637 + some
4.083        .0541           .0629 + some                          .0943 + some

You earn some extra interest in the first year, but I don't feel like doing the calculations with the scaling rates because I'm trying to keep this simple and just ballpark it.  Safe to say that at 2 btc onsite earning interest, the interest pays itself back sometime between year 2 and 3.  At 3 btc onsite, you earn it back before the second year is complete.  I don't keep nearly that much on the site... not your keys, not your coins and all that, but if you've got significant btc onsite (more than a couple btc), you'll get a lot more benefit out of this program, assuming it's not changed.  (Remember, holding 2 btc onsite is about $100k at this point. That's a good chunk to have somewhere with no safety net.  Stocks and bank accounts are federally guaranteed at that amount if the operator fails.)  

Another thing to consider, since this is going to add costs to the operating expenses of the site, this program has to significantly boost gambling income for this program to remain unchanged because it generates a profit for the site, which is another risk factor you have to consider.  Even with a good reputation, I'm not likely to put a significant amount of btc in some else's hands and trust it to be safe, but I'm probably far more cautious than a lot of people here, so take that for what it's worth.

WOF is not the biggest element for any bigger player its the cashback and also the interest is far more significant.   If I had somehow had extreme optimism for BTC and even moderate budget, I could have built 100 Bitcoin to deposit (over many years).   Sadly I lacked that ambition and I dont have anything near there but its quite realistic for people to be saving larger amounts in crypto and really the wheel is for fun.  Somewhere I will have a screenshot of my old mining pool amounts but Im fairly sure 100 was quite reasonable to those gifted that diamond hand vision :p   So Im thinking those dudes would be silly not to hold FUN.   I like the wheel element but also I never saved up that amount of BTC, I converted some to gold at one point which did go up but still Im looking silly at this point.   I wonder if the dude who sold his house for Bitcoin in 2013 is still holding, he used to come back to update his thread occasionally but it got locked sadly so who knows.
  I say 100 but 2btc or 3btc even will have some do the maths and know they get back the cost of FUN in benefit, I know its alot in FIAT just saying there was opportunities over the years and some never sold because they got matrix thinking.

You may still spin one by one if you like, for the person who said that.  Did that today and got at least one lucky spin, put it back into FUN as I like to speculate :p

Honestly there is no need to panic about the wheel of fortune that much considering that is like 50 satoshi per day, who would be really riled up about chance to win 50 satoshi per day? Sorry it could be 50 RP per day as well if you are unlucky.

I am not saying it is a bad thing, it gives as much as a rolex after all but let's be honest the chances for that is so little and you only have once a day chance that I do not think many will win it, probably few times a year between thousands of tries a day, hence I think it is not really that big of a deal.

You know what fun token gives you? Higher investment return, that is the most insane part, if you have a lot of bitcoins, you could put them here, buy fun token and actually make a living from just the interest, that is what we are talking about, that is a huge huge huge positive of fun token that people are not talking enough about.

Your calculations only apply to a pure claimer but not to a regular player. You didn't include the rakeback in your calculations, neither the amount of additional earning interests you can get.

Here's how I calculated initially, which is very rough back of the envelope math, and when the price was about 100 sats/FUN:


I like that you're accounting for lost interest income and needing to make that up. But you can take in WOF rewards into your consideration because someone published the prize table here, so statistically speaking we can come up with I feel a pretty good ballpark figure related to owning FUN.  I'll try to find some time to run the numbers and post here for review.  I need to find that prize chart that's buried a ton of pages back.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]