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Topic: Freedom Of Association? - page 7. (Read 11878 times)

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 21, 2011, 01:45:13 PM
The whole point of governance is to resolve conflicts, Libertarianism has no mechanism to do this other than some
crude and ineffective notion of property rights.
The mechanism is the same, laws, police, courts, and jails. The difference is that Libertarians don't recognize you wanting my stuff as a conflict that gets resolves in your favor.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 21, 2011, 01:37:55 PM

I actually do prefer fewer laws. There's less to mess with. There is a reason for the preference. I think when you have many laws you introduce the possibility of loopholes. Those tend to be exploited by lawyers allowing real criminals to use them to excuse themselves from the accountability of their actions.


This is Occam's Razor.

The problem is that human nature will lead to conflicts that Libertarianism does not have the mechanisms to resolve.

Which are?

Still waiting....
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
July 21, 2011, 01:32:01 PM

Those people actually reading my posts would see that I didn't ask for a list of potential meanings.  I asked how YOU were using the terms.  Sadly I don't have a dictionary that is labeled "bitcoin2cash to my personal usage English" which is why it's, at least in my circles deemed reasonable to get a definition before answering a question.  Perhaps where you come from it's not reasonable?  Which is fine but given that you seem to agree that it's rational to not answer a question without terms defined to ones satisfaction isn't the only thing blocking the conversation here some kind of emotional hang-up of yours?

I mean, hey if you don't want to talk that's fine but there are easier ways to do that...like not-posting.  Grin

 

I'm getting the same problem. The defenders of Libertarianism are simply not following the argument here.

The whole point of governance is to resolve conflicts, Libertarianism has no mechanism to do this other than some
crude and ineffective notion of property rights.

Its nothing but a half-assed hangover theory from a decadent, post-consumer society.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 21, 2011, 11:55:31 AM
Yes and under your system apparently these child abusers are not criminals and are also not punished correct?
If the child feels threatened, cannot express their situation to someone else they trust and feel safe with, nor permitted to leave their environment, these "verbal" abusers would be holding their own children hostage. Kidnapping is enslavement, and is obviously not allowed.


Quote from: jgraham
Depends on what you mean by "free".  Do you mean significantly unencumbered?
Yes, free. Free in the general vernacular and etymology of the word, indicating unencumberedness. Pedantic again?, see above... You know what it meant. The contextual use of that word was not meant to imply that it cost you no money, no energy, and no mental effort to relocate yourself to another position in a 4-dimensional (x,y,z,t) space as constrained by an inertial reference frame. Oh wait, quantum physicists believe their is 11-dimensional space, sorry, better get that straightened out too...Geez!


Quote from: jgraham
Technically that's equivocation.  Before you used the term 'force' to align with the term used by physicists.  Threats of violence are orthogonal to physical force.   Now you appear to be using the term to mean something else.
I suppose that's true to some extent. Maybe we could equate threats of violence/force with potential energy, and violence that has already been committed, with kinetic energy. I'm sure we can figure something out here. Most laws should, for the most part, align with measurable and observable physical phenomena. Those laws which include potential threats can be observed/defined as deterministic, or at the least probabalistic, predictable events in progress. It would be like setting the initial conditions of an experiment, then introducing impetus to the inputs, followed by observing the outputs.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
July 21, 2011, 10:38:47 AM
You seem to be making the argument that "the lower the number of laws to be made the more you prefer it".   This is seems pretty weak.

i) Why is low number of laws the key element?  By the same token one could argue that if we only consider assault to a person (rather than property) then that result is simpler still! Better yet, lets only consider assault to peoples left arms!
ii) Can you actually prove that there is no infinite set of laws that could potentially be made (given an infinite amount of time) concerning the assault of person and property?
iii) Your secondary clause is actually a slippery slope fallacy.  Many societies already consider various forms mental abuse to be a crime and yet we still see limitations on laws regarding offensive things in those places.  

So by "legal crimes" you meant "physical assault to a person and I'll assume by extension to ones property" then?.  That's interesting since it doesn't cover "threat of violence" with is considered "aggression" under NAP.   Which means that blackmail in your world is not a crime.  Also to you an dependent elder, child, spouse can be in an raised in an environment with constant psychological abuse (including say making someone fear for their life) and believe that no crime is being committed there.  Right?

Law is complicated because life is, in part because life today is complicated.

I actually do prefer fewer laws. There's less to mess with. There is a reason for the preference. I think when you have many laws you introduce the possibility of loopholes.
So fewer laws do not create loopholes or create less loopholes?  So if I have a law who's intent is to stop the use of dangerous weapons which only restricts weapons made of steel and a set of laws that provides specific requirements for each material based on various characteristics.  Are you saying the first law allows for less dangerous weapons than the second?

Not to mention this kind of highlights that the term "number of laws" is at least poorly defined.   What's the difference between my set of laws - strung together as a single sentence and classified as a single "law" and treating them as a group of laws?  Perhaps we need to use terms more like "simple" or "complex".   I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here - just trying to think things through.

However on that note this makes me think of the problems involved in approximation.  Bare with me here...if we assume that there is some kind of "true" justice then it seems reasonable that such a concept could be defined as a function (of sorts) where each possible situation is the input and the output maps to some set of results - leaving aside for the moment the difficulty in defining "true justice" and some of the other terms - we will call this function T.  A law then could be defined as a function attempting to approximate this function - which we'll call L.   It's inputs do not necessarily take into account every situation and it's outputs do not necessarily match T for any and all cases.    Given all that, what features would L require to approximate T best?

Quote from: FredericBastiat
In general, blackmail, slander, and other forms of questionable communication are not physical abuse as would be defined in the usual physical sense of the word, and so, would not fall into the category of punishable offenses. Notwithstanding, children, who by nature have limited ability to decide for themselves that they would leave such a negative environment if available, warrants some investigation.
Yes and under your system apparently these child abusers are not criminals and are also not punished correct?

Quote from: FredericBastiat
Everybody else is free to leave an abusive environment (assuming it isn't their own private property they're occupying, in which case the other person has to leave).
Depends on what you mean by "free".  Do you mean significantly unencumbered?

Quote from: FredericBastiat
Threats of force still involve the element of force
Technically that's equivocation.  Before you used the term 'force' to align with the term used by physicists.  Threats of violence are orthogonal to physical force.   Now you appear to be using the term to mean something else.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
July 21, 2011, 09:17:22 AM
It's a simple question.

I said you were stating the obvious. I'm sorry if you don't know whether or not that implies I agree with you.

Noooooo....what you said in reference to this particular point was:
Are you equivocating here?  You personally do not but that's because you don't have property on the other side of it.  Other people do, right now there's a municipal order allowing them access.

Would any rational person have bought that property in the first place if they couldn't be guaranteed access to it at a reasonable price in the future? No.
Define in his context how you are using "rational", "future" and "guaranteed".

Use a dictionary.
Those people actually reading my posts would see that I didn't ask for a list of potential meanings.  I asked how YOU were using the terms.  Sadly I don't have a dictionary that is labeled "bitcoin2cash to my personal usage English" which is why it's, at least in my circles deemed reasonable to get a definition before answering a question.  Perhaps where you come from it's not reasonable?  Which is fine but given that you seem to agree that it's rational to not answer a question without terms defined to ones satisfaction isn't the only thing blocking the conversation here some kind of emotional hang-up of yours?

I mean, hey if you don't want to talk that's fine but there are easier ways to do that...like not-posting.  Grin

Also it's probably worthwhile to attempt to see this from my point of view.  You have, self-described yourself as a zealot.  Zealots, in my experience tend to oversimplify things.

Quote from: bitcoin2cash
Quote from: jgraham
Quote from: bitcoin2cash
I take it that you concede my point that most roads will be owned by a business.
There's no reason for me to assume any of that.
Why is that an unreasonable assumption? Please provide some substance.
Either a strawman or a implied false dichotomy.  I've simply stated that there is no reason to assume that (especially since fantasy-land is pretty poorly defined and possibly this is deliberate on your part). 
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
July 20, 2011, 10:02:21 PM
It's a simple question.

I said you were stating the obvious. I'm sorry if you don't know whether or not that implies I agree with you.

Are you equivocating here?  You personally do not but that's because you don't have property on the other side of it.  Other people do, right now there's a municipal order allowing them access.

Would any rational person have bought that property in the first place if they couldn't be guaranteed access to it at a reasonable price in the future? No.
Define in his context how you are using "rational", "future" and "guaranteed".[/quote]

Use a dictionary. Answer the question.

Quote from: bitcoin2cash
I take it that you concede my point that most roads will be owned by a business.
There's no reason for me to assume any of that.[/quote]

Why is that an unreasonable assumption? Please provide some substance.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 20, 2011, 06:23:05 PM
Merely being imperfect humans leads to inevitable conflicts. This has nothing to do with Libertarianism, or for that matter any other type of form of government, belief system, "royal" proclamation, or list of prescribed constraints.

It is in man's nature to be destructive more often than not. It seemingly takes herculean effort to look outside oneself and "do the right thing."

The only constraints/actions governments can proscribe, are ones which involve the non-consensual entanglements and encroachments between men and their property. This is justice. Anything else, and the government abuses the same people it was intended to protect.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 20, 2011, 06:02:32 PM

I actually do prefer fewer laws. There's less to mess with. There is a reason for the preference. I think when you have many laws you introduce the possibility of loopholes. Those tend to be exploited by lawyers allowing real criminals to use them to excuse themselves from the accountability of their actions.


This is Occam's Razor.

The problem is that human nature will lead to conflicts that Libertarianism does not have the mechanisms to resolve.

Which are?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 20, 2011, 06:02:01 PM
The problem is that human nature will lead to conflicts that Libertarianism does not have the mechanisms to resolve.
Yes, the problem with "live and let live" is that it inevitably leads to conflicts. What leads to conflicts is fighting over the profits of government.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
July 20, 2011, 05:58:09 PM

I actually do prefer fewer laws. There's less to mess with. There is a reason for the preference. I think when you have many laws you introduce the possibility of loopholes. Those tend to be exploited by lawyers allowing real criminals to use them to excuse themselves from the accountability of their actions.


This is Occam's Razor.

The problem is that human nature will lead to conflicts that Libertarianism does not have the mechanisms to resolve.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 20, 2011, 05:51:33 PM
You seem to be making the argument that "the lower the number of laws to be made the more you prefer it".   This is seems pretty weak.

i) Why is low number of laws the key element?  By the same token one could argue that if we only consider assault to a person (rather than property) then that result is simpler still! Better yet, lets only consider assault to peoples left arms!
ii) Can you actually prove that there is no infinite set of laws that could potentially be made (given an infinite amount of time) concerning the assault of person and property?
iii) Your secondary clause is actually a slippery slope fallacy.  Many societies already consider various forms mental abuse to be a crime and yet we still see limitations on laws regarding offensive things in those places.  

So by "legal crimes" you meant "physical assault to a person and I'll assume by extension to ones property" then?.  That's interesting since it doesn't cover "threat of violence" with is considered "aggression" under NAP.   Which means that blackmail in your world is not a crime.  Also to you an dependent elder, child, spouse can be in an raised in an environment with constant psychological abuse (including say making someone fear for their life) and believe that no crime is being committed there.  Right?

Law is complicated because life is, in part because life today is complicated.

I actually do prefer fewer laws. There's less to mess with. There is a reason for the preference. I think when you have many laws you introduce the possibility of loopholes. Those tend to be exploited by lawyers allowing real criminals to use them to excuse themselves from the accountability of their actions.

Every type of physical assault is unique (including the circumstances and evidence, a lot like a fingerprint), that's why you have a court to determine the gravity of the crime and the specific punishment and restitution. I think a reasonable set of jurors, judge, arbiters, or other panel of discerning individuals can mete out a sentence of reasonable proportions.

In general, blackmail, slander, and other forms of questionable communication are not physical abuse as would be defined in the usual physical sense of the word, and so, would not fall into the category of punishable offenses. Notwithstanding, children, who by nature have limited ability to decide for themselves that they would leave such a negative environment if available, warrants some investigation.

Everybody else is free to leave an abusive environment (assuming it isn't their own private property they're occupying, in which case the other person has to leave). Threats of force still involve the element of force, and so are unacceptable. However, one must be careful when interpreting imminent threat as the act of aggression hasn't commenced yet. A sticky situation.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
July 20, 2011, 05:34:49 PM
Law is complicated because life is, in part because life today is complicated.

Hmmm, yes. I think this is the key point. Libertarianism cannot accommodate the complexities of
human nature.
 
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
July 20, 2011, 05:21:51 PM
I guess you could say there are 2 types of offenses. Mental and physical.

If you're going to allow mental offenses to become legal issues then you might as well open Pandora's Box. Because anything could be interpreted as offensive. There could be no end to the number of laws that one could write.

On the other hand, if we only consider the physical domain (physics of force), then you narrow the playing field considerably.

I personally prefer simplicity.
I suspect, in their heads everyone's already made the alliteration concerning the terms "simplicity" and "simple" so I won't bother.  Grin

You seem to be making the argument that "the lower the number of laws to be made the more you prefer it".   This is seems pretty weak.

i) Why is low number of laws the key element?  By the same token one could argue that if we only consider assault to a person (rather than property) then that result is simpler still! Better yet, lets only consider assault to peoples left arms!
ii) Can you actually prove that there is no infinite set of laws that could potentially be made (given an infinite amount of time) concerning the assault of person and property?
iii) Your secondary clause is actually a slippery slope fallacy.  Many societies already consider various forms mental abuse to be a crime and yet we still see limitations on laws regarding offensive things in those places. 

So by "legal crimes" you meant "physical assault to a person and I'll assume by extension to ones property" then?.  That's interesting since it doesn't cover "threat of violence" with is considered "aggression" under NAP.   Which means that blackmail in your world is not a crime.  Also to you an dependent elder, child, spouse can be in an raised in an environment with constant psychological abuse (including say making someone fear for their life) and believe that no crime is being committed there.  Right?

Law is complicated because life is, in part because life today is complicated.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 20, 2011, 03:23:44 PM
This sounds very attractive, but it's really not that simple. I eat a banana. Is that force? Well, not if it's my banana. But yes if it's your banana.

I don't give you $100. Is that force? Well, if you believe in enforceable contracts and I agree to give you $100, that's going to have to be considered force. Unless you don't believe in enforceable contracts, which seems to pretty much doom the concept of a modern industrial society which requires long-term investments and legally-enforceable agreements.


Every interaction with others is a form of contract. I do believe in enforceable contract. Still simple.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 20, 2011, 03:02:33 PM
I guess you could say there are 2 types of offenses. Mental and physical.

If you're going to allow mental offenses to become legal issues then you might as well open Pandora's Box. Because anything could be interpreted as offensive. There could be no end to the number of laws that one could write.

On the other hand, if we only consider the physical domain (physics of force), then you narrow the playing field considerably.

I personally prefer simplicity.
This sounds very attractive, but it's really not that simple. I eat a banana. Is that force? Well, not if it's my banana. But yes if it's your banana.

I don't give you $100. Is that force? Well, if you believe in enforceable contracts and I agree to give you $100, that's going to have to be considered force. Unless you don't believe in enforceable contracts, which seems to pretty much doom the concept of a modern industrial society which requires long-term investments and legally-enforceable agreements.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 20, 2011, 02:45:22 PM
#99
I guess you could say there are 2 types of offenses. Mental and physical.

If you're going to allow mental offenses to become legal issues then you might as well open Pandora's Box. Because anything could be interpreted as offensive. There could be no end to the number of laws that one could write.

On the other hand, if we only consider the physical domain (physics of force), then you narrow the playing field considerably.

I personally prefer simplicity.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
July 20, 2011, 01:30:17 PM
#98
List of "legal" crimes (rather short).

1) Murder and Injury.
2) Enslavement.
3) Theft.

Do you need a definition for murder, injury, enslavement and theft?.
Ok so "legal crime" in the sense you are using it has no meaning outside of something that qualifies as murder, injury, enslavement and theft?  Right?

Quote from: senior creepy
Oh wait a minute, lemme go get a hammer, gun and bulldozer. I'll be right on over..

Not tonight I have a headache.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 20, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
#97
List of "legal" crimes (rather short).

1) Murder and Injury.
2) Enslavement.
3) Theft.

Do you need a definition for murder, injury, enslavement and theft? That's kinda funny. Oh wait a minute, lemme go get a hammer, gun and bulldozer (I forgot, and a cage). I'll be right on over...
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
July 20, 2011, 01:10:33 PM
#96
Bigotry is not a "legal" crime.
Racism is not a "legal" crime.
Gender and age disrimination is not a "legal" crime.
Employment discrimination (depending on the contract covenants) is not a "legal" crime.
Segregation is not a "legal" crime.
Sexual orientation descrimination is not a "legal" crime.
Religious descrimination is not a "legal" crime.

Therefore, and obviously, exclusion and restriction of others from the use of one's private property is not a "legal" crime (regardless of the reasons).

List of "legal" crimes (rather short).

1) Murder and Injury.
2) Enslavement.
3) Theft.

Admittedly, most of the discrimination listed above is not nice, but that's a moral and religious concern not a legal one (take it up with your local ecclesiastical leader). We should all be kind, caring, charitable, loving, compassionate, empathetic and considerate. You just can't force such things as they don't fall into the category of "legal" crimes for which restitution can be demanded.
Can you define what you mean by "legal crime" here.
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