Topic: Freedom Of Association? - page 8. (Read 11878 times)

Sorry I didn't hear you. Are you agreeing with the statement or not?

What's your point? I claimed that stores would assure access to a major highway and then you state the obvious viz. that they wouldn't assure access to every customer at any cost. How does that disprove my claim that stores would still assure access to a major highway?

While this side-trip into your psyche is...amusing. I'd say that you can't reasonably expect an answer if you will not provide them. It's a simple question. Yes or no will do.

Are you equivocating here? You personally do not but that's because you don't have property on the other side of it. Other people do, right now there's a municipal order allowing them access.

Would any rational person have bought that property in the first place if they couldn't be guaranteed access to it at a reasonable price in the future? No.

Heavy on the prejudicial language there. Define in his context how you are using "rational", "future" and "guaranteed".

So in other words you accept that it's feasible for a non-business to own a major road?

Of course it is. It's also feasible that everyone decides to kill themselves tomorrow at 2:33 PM -5 GMT. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable.

Well firstly one of the senses of "feasible" means "likely" and/or "reasonable". Even in it's stricter senses it generally isn't synonymous with the strictest sense of "possible". So figure out what you are saying and get back to me.

You are just too cute for words!

Thanks but I'm taken.

...and this side-trip is just plain creepy.

NghtRppr

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Elder Crypto God

Sorry I didn't hear you. Are you agreeing with the statement or not?

Are you equivocating here? You personally do not but that's because you don't have property on the other side of it. Other people do, right now there's a municipal order allowing them access.

Would any rational person have bought that property in the first place if they couldn't be guaranteed access to it at a reasonable price in the future? No.

So in other words you accept that it's feasible for a non-business to own a major road?

Of course it is. It's also feasible that everyone decides to kill themselves tomorrow at 2:33 PM -5 GMT. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable. I take it that you concede my point that most roads will be owned by a business.

Quote from: NghtRppr on July 19, 2011, 04:28:40 PM

You are just too cute for words!

Thanks but I'm taken.

jgraham

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Would you as a grocery store be worried about any and all people as potential customers at any expense? No, of course not.

What's your point?

Sorry I didn't hear you. Are you agreeing with the statement or not?

Not every road will be a business. Interestingly enough I actually own sole rights to a private road right now.

Congratulations, why do I care about driving on your private road?

Are you equivocating here? You personally do not but that's because you don't have property on the other side of it. Other people do, right now there's a municipal order allowing them access.

Actually they are both identical in one very specific respect. They are both assuming that stating the idea is the same as solving the problem.

No. I've already explained that one is possible with current technology, it's just a matter of ironing out the details. Making tanks run on dirt isn't.

One is also a tank and the other is not. They are still identical in the respect in which the analogy was used and I love that you pretty much demonstrate my point in your reply.

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 06:07:32 PM

So what's the problem with using the term "fantasy land"?

The problem is that it's childish and only shows how pathetically frustrated you are that you can't attack the issue intellectually so you have to lash out like a whiny brat.

You are just too cute for words! Seriously it's a creative, simple and easy-to-understand term which defines a portion of the issues rather well. Your objection on the other hand I agree does show a degree of lashing out. Unlike you, I limit myself to speculation as to the cause Grin

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

The first real problem and the the whole thing caves in.

Or people will work together to solve the problem since they all have an incentive to find a peaceful solution. You really have no idea which way it will go.

Your argument amounts to "I can think of a situation in which your system gives a sub-optimal solution". That's a good refutation of the person who claims that their system will provide perfect results in every situation. But nobody is making that argument.

In any event, Democracy can be much worse. In any situation where a majority of people wish to oppress a minority, Democracy creates a high risk that they will be able to use force to do so in a way that the system will generally recognize as legitimate. At least Libertarianism does not recognize that use of force as legitimate, though of course if enough people with the ability to exercise force wish to exercise force, no system can stop them.

The hope of Libertarians is that the "live and let live" philosophy would reduce the situations in which people would feel the need to use force. Much of the unrest in our society today centers around how government force will be used to control non-coercive associations between people.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 06:07:32 PM

Quote from: myrkul on July 19, 2011, 05:53:07 PM

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 06:09:51 PM

How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?

Arbitration (Pre-planned dispute resolution)
Mediation (Unplanned dispute resolution)
Castle doctrine (ad-hoc dispute resolution)

Does that answer your question?

Ahh negotiation! And if negotiation fails or break down? Who enforces what? In such a situation you don't have Libertarianism, you have anarchy and conflict.

The first real problem and the the whole thing caves in.

Uh... no.

NghtRppr

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Elder Crypto God

I had to answer a new poster, as I thought we might be able to resolve some the of the issues, but he was even more stupid than the rest of you. Ho hum, back to kicking your myopic titbits into the debate gutter.

Work on your self-esteem so you won't have to constantly declare yourself the victor.

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 06:03:27 PM

So your resolution is segregation? That is reasonable.

That's the fallback when everything else breaks down. I don't think it will get that far in any realistic situation. Racists don't get any significant benefit from being racist. So if they start suffering significant costs, I think their racism is likely to yield. But yes, decent people will (and should) segregate themselves from recalcitrant racists.

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However, I suspect that violence would be a exist in such a situation, would you agree?

I don't think it's likely. I think it's possible. The truly to-the-bone racists will be in the minority in any realistic situation, so if they're violent, they'll just get put in jail. Hopefully, the non-racist supermajority will see no need to resort to violence.

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Would there be a mechanism to keep the violence in check, or does it rest on the rationality and good will of a collection of redneck racists and their anti-racist counterparts?

Reacting violently to other people's actions within their rights would be treated like violence in defiance of the law is in our society. It would be illegal and would result in civil forfeiture, jail time, and so on.

bonker

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Quote from: NghtRppr on July 19, 2011, 05:55:51 PM

It looks like you called it. He left us for a whole hour. Haha, what a clown.

I had to answer a new poster, as I thought we might be able to resolve some the of the issues, but he was even more
stupid than the rest of you. Ho hum, back to kicking your myopic titbits into the debate gutter.

bonker

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Quote from: myrkul on July 19, 2011, 05:53:07 PM

Quote from: JoelKatz on July 19, 2011, 05:48:40 PM

How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?

Arbitration (Pre-planned dispute resolution)
Mediation (Unplanned dispute resolution)
Castle doctrine (ad-hoc dispute resolution)

Does that answer your question?

bonker

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Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 05:43:50 PM

Freedom of association comes down to property. If I'm in your store, I have limited my freedom of association because I have to interact with the people you allow into your store. If I'm on my own property, I have complete freedom of association because I can limit who enters my property.

Quote

The only property based solution is partition and segregation. Spiraling conflict is the natural result in any case. How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?.. It doesn't.

I agree that if you had people who generally believe that racism and sexism are unacceptable and you also had people who wished to practice those kinds of discrimination, conflict would be inevitable. I already explained exactly how that conflict would work -- the non-racist, non-sexist folks would likely isolate themselves from the racists and sexists.

If a bunch of racist people want to live together and be racists, that's fine. I'm willing to live and let live. I will despise them, refuse to deal with them, and refuse to deal with those who deal with them. But I'm willing to let them do that in exchange for them allowing me to have integrated water fountains even if they'd prefer separate ones.

At least the racists can't use the machinery of government to enforce segregation or discrimination, as has happened in pretty much every Democracy.

So your resolution is segregation? That is reasonable. However, I suspect that violence would be a exist in such a situation, would you agree?
Would there be a mechanism to keep the violence in check, or does it rest on the rationality and good will of a collection of redneck racists and
their anti-racist counterparts?

NghtRppr

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Elder Crypto God

Quote from: myrkul on July 19, 2011, 03:49:35 PM

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 03:42:46 PM

Anyway, I got shit to do, so I'll just leave you lot here waffling on about pathways and boundaries and property and all that pointless bullshit.

No you won't. Trolls never stay away from the lulz.

It looks like you called it. He left us for a whole hour. Haha, what a clown.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?

Arbitration (Pre-planned dispute resolution)
Mediation (Unplanned dispute resolution)
Castle doctrine (ad-hoc dispute resolution)

Does that answer your question?

billyjoeallen

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Hide your women

Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 05:26:03 PM

What a terrible travesty of justice to be prevented from doing something you don't want to do in the first place. That's like complaining that you can't get raped. This is your big killer argument? fail.

Let me make it easier for you. Suppose during a famine, a bunch of racist whites had a great farm. Now they would let everyone in to eat except negros, simply because
they hated them.

That doesn't make it easier at all. Even if I accept for the sake of argument your improbable scenario, you have to compare the outcome to some other outcome. To avoid this problem (and yes, it is a problem), you create a larger problem, namely who decides who lives and who dies in a famine. If there's not enough to go around, then someone is going to die. Saving one person condemns another. Is there more justice when a white dies than when a black dies? You have the same problem either way, don't you.

Your critique seems to be that libertarianism doesn't solve a problem than other ideologies also don't solve. I agree, but that doesn't seem to be a very compelling criticism.

NghtRppr

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Elder Crypto God

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 05:46:22 PM

Indeed, Libertarianism is not perfect.

Derp! I don't know when anyone claimed it was perfect. If so, they were mistaken. Libertarianism is just and also, even though that's enough for me, it implies an economic system which works better than any others, free trade.

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 05:46:22 PM

But then neither was Marxism or any other artificial system of governance.

They're all not just but libertarianism is. Libertarianism is not Utopian though. If that's what you thought it was, that's just your own ignorance shining through. Read up, dummy.

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 05:43:50 PM

Quote

The only property based solution is partition and segregation. Spiraling conflict is the natural result in any case. How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?.. It doesn't.

bonker

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Quote from: NghtRppr on July 19, 2011, 05:38:22 PM

Quote from: JoelKatz on July 19, 2011, 05:32:49 PM

It's going to cause conflict, yes? How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?

Violence. The same as any system. Forcing whitey to allow blacks on his property vs. forcing blacks to stay off whitey's property. Get your head out of the clouds and stop pretending that any system is going to be perfect.

At last, a glimmer of realism! Indeed, Libertarianism is not perfect. But then neither was Marxism or any other artificial
system of governance.

bonker

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Quote from: bonker on July 19, 2011, 05:01:15 PM

It's not that negroes would not want to join a whites-only collective its that they would not be at liberty to do so.

Correct. Just as you may or may not want to bash my skull in with a baseball bat, but in no sensible society would you be at liberty to do so. Your freedom ends at my stuff.

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The point is that that Libertarianism does not address the issues of conflict that naturally arise from, for example, the Freedom of Association.

It does address them. It says that your freedom ends at my stuff. You cannot use coercive mechanisms to get access to stuff that is not yours. But there are a variety of non-coercive mechanisms you might use.

Quote

You goofballs seem so tied up in the concept of property and ownership that you miss the big picture. This is to be expected from a community born of decadence.

What's the big picture? We fully accept that freedom means that some people will do stuff that we would prefer they not do and we are willing to let them do that in exchange for having that same freedom ourselves.

And note that our society has precisely the same problems. The Boy Scouts of America remain free to exclude atheists, and they have substantial government support. Racism in the South was substantially propped up by Jim Crow laws.

This is a slightly more thoughtful, but still suffers from "stuff" obsession. Freedom of Association has little to do with "stuff" or property and is
a source of conflict that cannot be resolved with "stuff" or property.

The only property based solution is partition and segregation. Spiraling conflict is the natural result in any case. How does Libertarianism deal with conflict?.. It doesn't.

NghtRppr

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Elder Crypto God

Suppose during a famine...

So, you think that the consequences that result in emergency, life or death situations, should apply in all situations? Is your position that weak that you can only come up with examples that don't apply in real life, everyday situations?