Topic: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) - page 11. (Read 42655 times)

Almost at 100 Gigahashes/s already 

Sorry, didn't see this.


Demurrage is supposed to suppress the basic interest.


It would be 4%.


0%


0% but...
With this high rates, you're doing more than suppressing the basic interest. You would be pushing rates below zero.
What would happen? Of course, we don't know, but let me speculate...
We're assuming stable price. So you would be pushing for lower than zero REAL interest rates. I don't think any rational lender would lend at negative real rates. He would prefer to invest himself or to purchase some commodity suitable for hoarding (gold, wine?). So in this case, your hurting the financial market too (as the basic interest does).

With basic interest, the borrower won't take the money if he doesn't expect yields over or equivalent to the basic interest.
With these demurrage rates...borrowers will still offer zero rates if they can achieve zero yields on their investments, but maybe lenders would be willing to take more risks.
I don't know, it's hard to tell what would happen with this high rates, but if the history-based measure of the basic interest is correct, putting more demurrage will intuitively lead to something that's not good. And, as said, my intuition is that less investments would be made as savers prefer to buy goods to hoard over lending/investing OR the economy as a whole would make "more risky investments than it should"


Not sure if this answer will satisfy you, but I hope you can get a clearer idea of Gesell's free-money theory of interest.

https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/issues/17

I thought that same thing at first, but it seems it would be worse.


There's several discussions on the freicoin forums about this, but I'll post here again the chapter where Gesell justifies the 5% value:

http://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/part5/8.htm

Another daily hashrate chart:

Personally I think it's a new idea, and therefore it's awesome!

Isn't that what we're all about here? 

Anyone, feel free to toss me some FRC I'm excited

And this is a very reasonable and commendable objective. You are however in a tiny minority of a tiny minority (those who are prudent enough to  think of saving-> subgroup those who have a grasp of cryptography and economics)

Most people are used to- and still want cheap an crazy credit money. And if they are surfing the web and can see the obvious benefit in decentralized money... FREICON FREICOIN (had to kep the misspelling after edit  )!

I can't take any more of this philosophical nonsense. I want my currency to be as effective a store of value as possiblePERIOD

I don't want or need it to attempt to shelter the poor, feed the hungry, punish tyrants, etc...

One of the reasons is related to our mascot, the arctic tern.

The world most people are looking for and the world of the tern are nearly the same. A soaring bird, like the tern, is only seconds away from a collision with the ground. The bird must respect and obey the natural laws or suffer the worst consequences.  Yet, its able to use its brain to stay aloft for hours. In contrast, man's laws are regularly abused by corruption, intimidation, and celebrity. Punishment has become increasingly avoidable, especially in finance. Most people agree this is a net negative for humanity.

What maaku and jtimon have done is come up with a method for making the system of finance behave more naturally. This is very much in the interest of "fairness." Everything decays; so should our money.

Freicoin is a lot like flying through the air. You must either spend energy and flap your wings, or be smart and find rising air to soar if you want to stay up. To those who argue that 5% demurrage may be the wrong value -- gravity on the surface of the earth is a constant -- does that make flight and crashing impossible?

nah friecoin is just a taxed coin.. everyone mining wants to call it a big thing so they can find suckers to buy it off them before they get taxed.

how about instead of promoting yet another alt coin to the 150k crypto community. you try promoting the existent coins which are lasting the test of time (litecoin and bitcoin) to the mainstream merchants.

I´ll give you 500 1000 FRC if you can have it ready in 4 weeks time. The Freicoin Foundation should support this (-yes, seriously); I recommend all early FRC adopters to support it. But the following changes has to be included, to make it even less of a copy-cat coin:

- The addresses will have to start with rather "b","f" or something: anything other than "1" (more stylish also)
- The demurrage has to start way higher than 5%, lets say 65% which is then reduced to 5% in 3 years (as a part of the initial distribution)
- The name bushcoin or obamaCoin is not acceptable, we need a serious, un-political sounding name. I can accept subCoin (for subSTRATA Coin).

aaaand its gone

Really, 5% demurrage would have the same basic interest rate as 0% demurrage according to your understanding of the theory? Hmmm that's what I thought too, so finally we have something to agree upon 

We're on a bit of a tangent here, but actually Gesell advocated variable interest rates set by a state mechanism (pricing of demurraged stamps affixed to paper bills). Our concern was that there's no decentralized mechanism for adjusting rates that is not subject to influence/attack. However compared to other indicators basic interest is incredibly stable.

I'm of a slightly different opinion on the stability of the liquidity premium, I think it fluctuates with the business cycle.  When times are good and most types of assets are rising in value and loanable funds are in abundance the premium goes down because money as a hedge is less useful.  In bad economic times when most real assets are falling or in danger of falling and the markets are gripped by 'flight to safety' the liquidity premium rises.  The higher premium drives down monetary velocity and compounds the economic downturn.  Gesell provides 5% as the 'historical average' but dose not claim that liquidity premium is invariant.

We have had considerable debates on this on the Freicoin forums and while I believe that adjustable rate of demurrage would be ideal in a theoretical sense, it was clear to everyone that such as system was too high a mountain to climb both technologically and in public acceptance so Gesell's fixed rates were used.

so hey guys....


has there EVER been another alt-coin that was so freaking controversial before?

This just seems to be pretty rediculous how much garbage and hate is being thrown around.

If you dont like how its ran.. than dont buy it or mine it.. ITS THAT SIMPLE.

The basic interest rate / liquidity premium is a natural feature of money unrelated to the artificially-imposed demurrage rate. Basic interest does not go up or down if demurrage parameters are adjusted. Gesell argued that demurrage should be equal to the basic interest rate, which at his time and now hovered around 5% (but like the undeveloped value of land, it's not something easy to measure). We chose 4.89% because the math was better (2**-20 per 10min block) and it stayed within the error bars of ~5%.

How is basic interest rate related to demurrage rate in Gesell's theory?

Assuming there is no competing currencies, what's the basic interest rate (a rough estimate would be okay) for:

1% annual demurrage rate
5% annual demurrage rate
10% annual demurrage rate
90% annual demurrage rate

Can anyone answer that? Then it would be easier for us to grasp the claim here.

No, I think he means that since less factories are built than what would be profitable without basic interest, they're being forced to compete for artificially scarce means of production. But, sorry, I can't be sure what he meant exactly.


Well, yes, it is kind of a rent, but not exactly. In my country, Spain, I'm forced to pay an all-in-one health and unemployment insurance to a public company called "Social Security".
So I won't feel like I'm stealing anything when I receive unemployment subsidies if I ever do.
Of course, this goes against the free market and private companies could make this more efficiently. That's not what we're proposing here and we don't have force to use.


Actually most people pay far more interested priced in the products they consume through their lives than they get from their savings. Even most entrepreneurs and smart guys.
By accepting free money, you're making more investments profitable and you're getting lower prices for yourself. That's why I believe free-money will be competitive against capital-money on a free market.


I disagree with your point. Saving and trading are different things. The financial market is not "just another market", it greatly influences all the other ones. Because it is very important for investment and real capital accumulation (which I think you'll agree is the root of prosperity).


I don't understand why you keep talking about interest rates and capital yield when bitcoin is not about that at all.  Bitcoin is jjust a currency.  It does not say anything about credit and investments.