Topic: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) - page 15. (Read 42655 times)

I'm still currently buying FRC @ 0.0002 BTC per FRC (0.2btc per 1000 frc)

Pm me if interested 

The key here is the distinction between 'Basic' interest and the interest rate on individual loans.  Basic interest is what the lender can demand for a risk-free loan and each individual borrower is then charged a premium for their individual risk factors (or refused a loan all together).  The aim of Demurrage and Gesell's theories is to bring basic interest to 0% as only that portion of a loan is usury, the risk premium portion is completely legitimate and necessary.  Competition between lenders will drive the risk premium down to just paying for defaults and profits which as Jt explains naturally fall to zero under perfect competition.

The reality is that loans in Freicoin won't start until valuation has become stable and a good amount of products are selling in Freicoin.

ixcoin? LOL
how many *coins are there actually? total mindfuck
bitcoin, devcoin, ppcoin, terracoin, freicoin, litecoin, timecoin, solidcoin, mindblowncoin?

I've been mining since last night, I didn't get any coins from pool.freico.in

LAst coins were from 6 am, its 4 am now, almost.

I'm also interested what you estimated the hashes/second of devcoin and ixcoin at.

well besides Bitcoin and Namecoin.

I am only thinking of demurrage in the sense of a tool (tax) to benefit the PP-coin stake minter, somewhere in the magnitude of the 1% you have today from inflation by stake minting (minus the tx fees).

So if we keep to discussing this 1% I see the following main arguments demurrage vs inflation (not considering extra complexity in code):

Demurr+:
1) The selling point of a clearly non-inflating coin base in the long term (much like bitcoin), very helpful for convincing the non-technical adopter for which purely digital money coupled with just the hint of some in-built inflation will sound terrifying.
2) The psychological drive will be higher for any stake holder to connect to the network and mint the stake coins: Just compare the slight inconvenience of having a stash of 100 PPC and miss an opportunity to earn one more VS the horror of not being prudent enough to prevent 100 PPC from decaying down to 99. This is such a strong effect that the percentage might be brought down to 0.5 or less, with the same amount of PPC kept as stake for minting.

Demurr-:
1) The inconvenience for any non-stake holder to see the constant small reduction by demurrage, especially for denominated physical coins, or gift certificates, holding demurrage-PP´s
2) If stake minting is exactly equal to demurrage then any destroyed tx fees will lead to shrinkage of the coin base.

BTW: I think the term tax should not be used for any function of distribution limited to 3-5 years, like for the 80% of Freicoins. This is an initial distribution, not a tax.

FRC faucet: http://www.theopeneffect.com/freicoin/


LOGO:

Hey! I´m probing for a swift merger of PP´s- and Frei´s. I even have the name ready: Creuro (crypto-euro) 

I made another graph to celebrate breaking past 50GH/s. Additionally, the difficulty has increased and is now 4096. We now have more hashes/second than any other SHA256 coin (TRC, PPC, etc), besides Bitcoin. The growth in computing power supporting the Freicoin is exceeding all of my expectations.

I don't know why you insist on using the word “tax” for the initial distribution. A tax is a coercive transfer of wealth; an initial distribution materializes out of nothing. 20% of the initial distribution goes to the miners, 80% is distributed through Foundation grants. We've been upfront about this.

I would not call the demurrage rate and perpetual subsidy a tax either. It is part and parcel with the implicit contract binding the Freicoin protocol together. It's something everyone agrees to by using the coin, and which cannot be retroactively changed. And there's an easy way to opt out: don't use Freicoin.

Yes, I agree that the Foundation represents an existential risk for Freicoin right now. In the near-term Freicoin will succeed or fail based on public perception of how open, transparent, fair, and efficient the grant selection process is. That's why work on the Foundation is our top priority now that the reference client has been released.

However even in the very long-term the Foundation's assets will eventually decay to zero, with those coins re-entering the marketplace through miner subsidies.

I'm buying, not selling (Don't tell Luke jr)

I'll buy from you at 0.0000001 btc per FRC ok? Deal. lol 

I'm currently buying FRC @ 0.0002 BTC per FRC (0.2btc per 1000 frc)

Pm me if interested

In ppcoin inflation is countered via destruction of transaction fees. No demurrage will not be included in ppcoin. This is irrespective of the fact that I don't like demurrage I think it's effect is sort of equivalent to inflation. Even if I were to be persuade that demurrage has a somewhat positive effect on economy as a whole I would only do it in a separate cryptocurrency instead of messing with ppcoin.

Also I think there is some misunderstanding in your post. Demurrage does not counter inflation. Both inflation and demurrage can be considered a form of taxation on the economy. This tax is paid to miners in the case of bitcoin and freicoin but for ppcoin it's paid to stake minter in addition to miners. Here is a little comparison of mining tax rate between the 3 coins:

asymptotic annual mining tax rate:
bitcoin: 0% + transaction fee tax rate
ppcoin: <1%
freicoin: 5%

freicoin has chosen a rapidly decreasing inflation rate though (inflation stops after 3 years). Comparison of annual mining tax rate 3 years from now (one year before bitcoin's second halving):
bitcoin: ~ 9% (would become 4~5% after the second halving)
ppcoin: unknown (maybe close to bitcoin's depending on market adoption)
freicoin: 5%

So freicoin has one year window where it's mining tax rate is significantly lower than bitcoin's.

However freicoin has an additional centralized tax known as 'foundation tax' at a rate of 80%, on the entire money supply for the first 3 years (80m out of total 100m coins). So the coin's fate will largely depend on the good will of the management of the foundation and the immediate effect is that hash rate of the network will be 'taxed away' and the protection level against 51% attack is lower than a comparably valued (in terms of market cap) cryptocoin. But I think another serious issue is the foundation has too much concentration of wealth and might be subject to confiscation (no plausible deniability as the addresses of the foundation are hardcoded in source code and its accounting is presumably public).

Here is FRC discussion, not PPC.

Did you ever consider general demurrage to offset the Proof-of-Stake inflation in PPCoin? If the reason is that this introduces extra coding-complexity, would you consider introducing it in a later version of PPCoin? Maybe have a look at the code for demurrage in Freicoin?

Freicoin is performing exact internal arithmetic, using arbitrary-precision rational type (basically two BigNums, a numerator and a denominator). This is for a variety of reasons, but chiefly because tracking sub-satoshi amounts internally allows us to later increase divisibility by switching to a decimal floating point type for CTxOut::nValue.

How exchange operators should handle demurrage in a fair and equitable manner is outlined here: How to properly handle demurrage in applications

EDIT: The fraction that follows the balance is always in the range (0, 1) satoshi; in other words it's what's left over if you were to truncate to a "normal" bitcoin balance of 8 decimal places. For many applications it is fine to simply ignore/truncate these sub-satoshi values (and indeed, this is what the GUI does).

Hello Mr. Troll...

Demurrage cannot be sidestepped. It happens to coins that stay still, and it happens to coins that move. This would also generally be applied to balances that sites hold in FRC for users. If the site operator is nice enough to "pay" his users 5% per year by not imposing demurrage, he might get (or want) something in return.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fluctuations" since demurrage can be accurately calculated for any given blockheight. Once difficulty catches up to hashing that will be a pretty reliable indicator and potentially a new fee mechanism that site operators will like.

The genie is out of the bottle with alt-coins and there are a huge number of financial theories out there that are begging for experimentation. Watch the experiment if you don't want to participate, and you might learn something.

You can also continue to show your inability to turn a verb into a noun, and we will mock your failure.