Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell - page 18. (Read 46265 times)

have you seen where blockstream have actually been TRULY decentral and diverse.
seen any cases where they have welcomed different brands of nodes(which are not just blockstream with a different sticker.. EG knots (Luke Jr->Blockstream)

or

have you seen all the REKT campaigns against anything not blockstream sanctioned/employed/funded.(xt, classic, bu, and others)

..
imagine it this way
"its decentralised because there are atleast 100 superhubs in the DNS" .. (100 nodes owned by core devs/intern spellcheckers)

well first of all, I am still trying to better understand LN.

but generally, yes everyone can be their own hub if they want to start their own hub business (until regulators say you cant because youre a money transfer company)... I guess I was hoping we wouldn't need all these hubs...and there would be something even better, some kind of decentralized network of networks (kind of like the world wide web) that would just help you route your payment to anyone else in the world through open channels.

has this been discussed?  Because all i'm seeing (and I'm not trying to be combative) -- alls I am seeing is more paypal 2.0s

I think that being an expert consultant is worth a lot of money. Even just a presentation at some conference can earn nice $.

Since everyone, including you and I, can have their own Lightning node (="hub") and earn some small fees (which drives fees to be even lower), I do not see that as part of their potential profits.




@franky1: do you base their on their routing algorithms and such or are you just "guessing"? No one working on Lightning wants to see 1 big node as that is obviously a fail in a decentralized protocol. I am skeptical too about such details, but I do not see it as reason to make a lot of conspiracies here and effectively block such innovation from even trying. If Segwit would be enabled on mainnet, Lightning would be still experimental (and therefor only for small transactions) and routing details can be still adjusted to ensure no 1 big node will exist - obviously no one wants that.

amiko-pay: "Cheap Amiko Pay transactions are expected to be much cheaper than regular Bitcoin transactions,"

eclair "default-feerate-perkw = 1000        fee-base-msat = 546000"
.. and so on..

none are offering zero fee for hopping(spoke)/routing.. but where some are charging 500-1000sat. blockstream are charging less (in millisat amounts in some cases)
oh.. and if the others are running hops(spoke) expect each hop to cost. EG if it takes 10 hops.. thats 9 perks/tips/thankyous the initial person has to pay to ensure each of the other 9 parties route the payment

this is where blockstream will be the mega hub because people only paying 1 sat to blockstream is savvi compared to just being a hop(spoke)  where it but costing the user 9000sat internally to hop(spoke) through 10 channels

all blockstream need to do is limit the hops needed (centralise it to a hub) and then they can have the lowest fee's around while rake it all in by being centralised.


whats better occasional ~700sat nor and again if lucky.. or 1sat each from millions of people...
people wont pay 9000 just for the sake of 'oh it took 10 decentralised hops.. happy days' they would be like 'i wanna pay 1sat'

ok but don't you agree these will generally be (If not all) profit driven projects , why would they build it for free when the companies building can set themselves up as a hub

Because it is potentially very cool innovation on top of bitcoin!

I say "potentially" because of course it still has to prove itself. But instant micro/small bitcoin transactions with very low fee, sounds pretty nice to me!





Note that Blockstream just has 2 people working on Lightning (from their 30-something? employees.) It is definitely not like their whole business is based on Lightning. If Lightning proves itself to be really a proper decentralized second layer solution for microtransactions, every company that wants to use it, could use one of those implementation. But I could imagine that some bigger companies wouldn't mind to hire an expert consultant (and pay them decent $$$) to ensure that their Lightning implementation works good for their business. So I could imagine that this would be 1 potential future revenue source for any company/developer spending time on Lightning right now.

thanks for the info!

so then please, tell us..what is the business model here? Why are six companies working on this? 

Lol, all you guys can do is come up with idiotic, false and just stupid conspiracy theories? If Blockstream will somehow charge money for their Lightning implementation, we will just use one of the other implementations. It's a decentralized open-source protocol, you must be rather stupid to think they will get rich from it.





There are 6 separate implementations of the LN protocol:

* Amiko-Pay
* Eclair (ACINQ)
* lightningd (Blockstream)
* lit (MIT Digital Currency Initiative)
* lnd (Lightning Co) - extra projects on top of 'lnd': Colu, lncli-web, lnd-gui
* Thunder (Blockchain.info)

The middle 4 projects are most active and working on implementing the same BOLT standard, so they will be fully compatible with each other. You can test them with Bitcoin's regtest and some do work on testnet (with Segwit-enabled) already.

a DNS is like a directory of who and where..
its used to link people together by listing the routes in the DNS.

simply by only listing blockstream in the DNS. everyone connects to blockstream making blockstream the super hub



there are other brands. for instance bitfury have Flare. another brand has Thunder.

but as we all know.. if its not blockstream sanctioned and managed.. expect them to be REKT with all the accusations of 'its not good enough' its an altcoin service, its not been independently reviewed. its buggy, their devs are crap. etc (standard blockstream shill script)

what is this so called LN DNS SEED and why can't other developers create their own LN DNS?

which is where i told you the utopian dream of decentralsied nodes getting paid for just being routes wont happen
blockstream owning the LN DNS SEED. to ensure everything routes through them. will make sure they get the fee's to repay their $70m debt to VC

ok... but somehow i don't think Blockstream intends to empower the people in this way.  Why should they? There's no profit in that.  The obvious business model is become paypal 2.0

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that if they want to build it (blocksize debate aside)...but i think people will be in for a rude awakening when they realize the plan.

They may even do some kind of white label lightening hub program , where it looks like theres many providers (i can already hear the forum shills saying "are you a dumbass, there's 300 companies doing this, its totally decentralized") but a portion of the proceeds all go to blockstream (or one of the other big companies actually building a network).

But again, it is in all of these guys best business interests (anyone in the LN business) to keep on chain fees high.

i realised my scenario was where you were connected to bob and it was alice that wanted to pay bob

if its just inside channel.. EG you and alice NO FEE either side for all the offchain payments of just you and alice..

but whoever is acting as a route to another channel deserves a thankyou fee in which case

if alice had 2 channels YOU-alice... bob-alice.
and you wanted to pay bob... you would give alice a small fee, a tip as it were..

if alice had 2 channels YOU-alice... bob-alice.
and alice wanted to pay bob... you have no involvement. as its all done on bob-alice channel. costs you nothing. you see nothing . know nothing

if you had 2 YOU-alice. You-bob
and you wanted to pay bob... alice have no involvement. as its all done on you-bob channel. costs alice nothing. alice sees nothing . knows nothing

if you had 2 YOU-alice. You-bob
and alice wanted to pay bob... alice you would give you a small fee, a tip as it were..

right, so my point is : i'm gonna be paying that channel fees anyway, cause i want shirts and socks etc... so it costs me nothing extra to get the 1 penny for routing.

now your flipping the scnario.. edit... oops sorry i flipped it.. anyways

if alice has one with you..
and alice has one with bob

then alice does not need you to pay bob.

so you wont get a thank you as you are not involved with alice paying bob.

but if you want to pay bob. without you having a channel with bob direct... you then need to pay alice a small thank you fee as she was the router between you and bob..

anyway. lets go back to the first scenario(they way i wrote it) where alice and you have a channel .. and you and bob have a channel.. and alice wants to pay bob via you...

this image may help

there is no fake bitcoin yet but it will be if the BTU and sorts were created, Besides they dont really mean a fake but somehow altcoin. Every news u get depends on who is sending it/ what he or she believe could be done to improve bitcoin efficiency. I dont want to influence your opinion but most of the ideas are selfish. just like u might also be. It is more also of the leadership in currency management.

Well, there's 2 possibilities that I can envision right now (there may be more)

#1:) You have big companies, lets say Blockstream, that provides a 'blockstream' channel... so if I want to send a payment to Bob, and we both have a channel with Blockstream, we could do it through them.

#2:) You have some kind of smart wallet that automatically accepts third party requests on your behalf , and it handles all the details so you do not have to trust them, and if one of those third parties happens to be an unscrupulous character, well you can certain easily claim plausible deniability just as if some anonmymous person was downloading a torrent...all the wallet sees is an IP address.  Obviously we want to stay private, get more privacy, not less.

EDIT:  If we cannot describe exactly how scenario #2 is going to be implemented (and we can't describe another scenario), then the alternative is that you are going to be using a big company (like Blockstream) cough paypal2.0 cough and relying on them to transact.  so.... i am wondering how deeply people who are really excited about LN have thought this through and would like to hear others' thoughts.

Yes. That is why it is important to only open payment channels with people that you trust. You would not want to be the person connecting payments with a criminal or a terrorist. You do not want the FBI knocking on your door. Hehe.

A serious LN feature would be to make it anonymous. Another possibility I like is that it can become a bridge for other blockchains.

Frankie, that wasn't my understanding of how LN works (not saying i'm right .cause im just
learning how this is all supposed to work...) but the point is: if Alice already has a channel
with Bob , I dont need to open a channel with Bob myself cause i can just go through Alice.

What am I missing, or why are we not on the same page here?

the onchain transactions would be
you deposit $60  - pay the onchain mining fee of say $1(whatever the onchain mining fee is at the time)
alice deposit $60  - pay the onchain mining fee of say $1(whatever the onchain mining fee is at the time)
this then logs the opening of the channel

and when you close its 1 onchain tx of $1(whatever the onchain mining fee is at the time)
 to payout whoever has whatever share of the $120(combined funds of the channel)

..
but within LN
if its just you and alice buying stuff from each other then no internal fee unless one of you demand it.
...

but if alice wanted to pay bob. firstly you would have to have a channel between you and bob aswell.
you deposit $60  - pay the onchain mining fee of say $1
bob deposit $60  - pay the onchain mining fee of say $1
this then logs the opening of the 2nd channel

so now you have 2 channels open..
alice<> you <> bob

now because you are just being used as a hop(spoke)/hub to bob.. alice must pay you something as a 'thankyou' for routing it.
just to ensure you dont mess things up for alice and bob. so thats where you would get your 1sat from.

all of the OFFCHAIN 1sat fee's are YOUR PROFIT..
the onchain settlement closing fee is still $1 per channel(whatever the onchain mining fee is at the time) no matter how many offchain payments were made in that month. or how much you earned OFFCHAIN by being a hub/spoke route.

but for alice in this example if she had to pay bob 1000 times in that month. it has cost her 1000sat as she has had to say thank you to you 1000 times for helping her and bob.
meaning out of you and alices channel of $120 combined.  to cover the thank you's for being a route to bob