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Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell - page 15. (Read 46270 times)

legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
We all know satoshi said multiple implementations would be bad. 

Admittedly, he did. However, the world is replete with multiple interoperating implementations of various protocols. Indeed, even Bitcoin is already working with multiple interoperating implementations. Are you stating that Satoshi's worst fears about multiple implementations need be slavishly adhered to?

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And yes if BU took over the president would have control through appointed deputies, whom he can have removed if he wishes. 

Nonsense. There are no deputies. There are four differentiated officers -- each with limited and defined powers -- and members.

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BU is to run a mining and it is stated if they own greater than 51% they will no do anything to not control greater than 51%. 

The AoF do speak of a mining pool. Something I argued against at the time. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with it, but rather because operating a pool seemed to me to be a distraction to the core effort.

But I don't think the pool never had anyone actually put the effort in to set it up. It is an unrealized plan. So even if it does not explicitly ban owning 51% of the network, it actually owns 0%.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm certainly willing to consider it. But you seem to be merely concern trolling. Almost as if your quasi-religious belief that Bitcoin is perfectly resistant to change is being threatened or something.

sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Well, yes. If the president is voted in for successive terms, then he would preside as long as that kept occurring. And? Is the CEO of Blockstream term limited?

The president of the BU Federation -- even if BU became the client of choice for the entirety of the network -- would not have 'dictatorship over bitcoin'. Firstly because the president of BU F's powers are limited over BU F, and second because BU F has no real power over the Bitcoin network.

Further, as Bitcoin is decentralized, there is no way to usurp core, as core has no formal power over Bitcoin either.

As near as I can tell, most of us BU'ers would like to see multiple implementations on the network.
We all know satoshi said multiple implementations would be bad.  And yes if BU took over the president would have control through appointed deputies, whom he can have removed if he wishes.  It's all part of the federation, I suspect you haven't read.  It's not a democracy by any meaningful sense.  And there is no division of powers or separation of duties to create check and balances.

BU is to run a mining and it is stated if they own greater than 51% they will no do anything to not control greater than 51%. 

there are all kinds of different implementations on the network.

https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_adoption/

check it out, you can even see which will crash and burn once segwit is activated
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
Well, yes. If the president is voted in for successive terms, then he would preside as long as that kept occurring. And? Is the CEO of Blockstream term limited?

The president of the BU Federation -- even if BU became the client of choice for the entirety of the network -- would not have 'dictatorship over bitcoin'. Firstly because the president of BU F's powers are limited over BU F, and second because BU F has no real power over the Bitcoin network.

Further, as Bitcoin is decentralized, there is no way to usurp core, as core has no formal power over Bitcoin either.

As near as I can tell, most of us BU'ers would like to see multiple implementations on the network.
We all know satoshi said multiple implementations would be bad.  And yes if BU took over the president would have control through appointed deputies, whom he can have removed if he wishes.  It's all part of the federation, I suspect you haven't read.  It's not a democracy by any meaningful sense.  And there is no division of powers or separation of duties to create check and balances.

BU is to run a mining and it is stated if they own greater than 51% they will no do anything to not control greater than 51%. 
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
intentionally created by artificially restricting the main blockchain.  This is what is meant when people talk about "turning bitcoin from p2p cash into a settlement network."
artificially is a nonsensical subjective word.  The whole project like the 21 million cap is artificial.  Bitcoin will still be peer to peer cash even as a high value settlement network. 
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

I know there is fear among the big blockers about it becoming like Paypal 2.0, but what if the system is a level playing field and an open one? I am sure Blockstream does not have a monopoly in setting up a payment hub service.

They do not have a monopoly, and I don't have any reason to suspect there isn't a level playing field.  The main issue for me is the entire market getting a huge boost to solve a problem that is being intentionally created by artificially restricting the main blockchain.  This is what is meant when people talk about "turning bitcoin from p2p cash into a settlement network."
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
how much will it cost to run a LN hub?

depends what you mean by 'LN hub' and 'running one'.

Bitcoin is permissionless but programming takes time/money, and if you create a permissioned service as a business, developing that business also takes time/money.

legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
When the start of the hierarchy is started from self appointment the BU articles of federation serve only to usurp core and to give the president dictatorship over bitcoin.  For what I can tell there is no rule that the same person can't rule forever...?

Well, yes. If the president is voted in for successive terms, then he would preside as long as that kept occurring. And? Is the CEO of Blockstream term limited?

The president of the BU Federation -- even if BU became the client of choice for the entirety of the network -- would not have 'dictatorship over bitcoin'. Firstly because the president of BU F's powers are limited over BU F, and second because BU F has no real power over the Bitcoin network.

Further, as Bitcoin is decentralized, there is no way to usurp core, as core has no formal power over Bitcoin either.

As near as I can tell, most of us BU'ers would like to see multiple implementations on the network.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
how much will it cost to run a LN hub?
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
I like your thinking about scenario #2. A 3rd party service or a "smart wallet" is a more convenient way for ordinary users to have an extra layer that does not directly connect anyone with questionable users of the system.

I know there is fear among the big blockers about it becoming like Paypal 2.0, but what if the system is a level playing field and an open one? I am sure Blockstream does not have a monopoly in setting up a payment hub service.

LN DNS SEED.. look into it
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Frankie, that wasn't my understanding of how LN works (not saying i'm right .cause im just
learning how this is all supposed to work...) but the point is: if Alice already has a channel
with Bob , I dont need to open a channel with Bob myself cause i can just go through Alice.


What am I missing, or why are we not on the same page here?



Yes. That is why it is important to only open payment channels with people that you trust. You would not want to be the person connecting payments with a criminal or a terrorist. You do not want the FBI knocking on your door. Hehe.
 

Well, there's 2 possibilities that I can envision right now (there may be more)

#1:) You have big companies, lets say Blockstream, that provides a 'blockstream' channel... so if I want to send a payment to Bob, and we both have a channel with Blockstream, we could do it through them.

#2:) You have some kind of smart wallet that automatically accepts third party requests on your behalf , and it handles all the details so you do not have to trust them, and if one of those third parties happens to be an unscrupulous character, well you can certain easily claim plausible deniability just as if some anonmymous person was downloading a torrent...all the wallet sees is an IP address.  Obviously we want to stay private, get more privacy, not less.

EDIT:  If we cannot describe exactly how scenario #2 is going to be implemented (and we can't describe another scenario), then the alternative is that you are going to be using a big company (like Blockstream) cough paypal2.0 cough and relying on them to transact.  so.... i am wondering how deeply people who are really excited about LN have thought this through and would like to hear others' thoughts.

I like your thinking about scenario #2. A 3rd party service or a "smart wallet" is a more convenient way for ordinary users to have an extra layer that does not directly connect anyone with questionable users of the system.

I know there is fear among the big blockers about it becoming like Paypal 2.0, but what if the system is a level playing field and an open one? I am sure Blockstream does not have a monopoly in setting up a payment hub service.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
BU is not bitcoin it's an open source software implementation of the bitcoin client. - Unlike linus torvald's Linux or mike hear's XT  it does not have a benevolent dictator, and unlike Core's crony consensus, BU has a mechanism by which controversial changes are presented evaluated and voted on.

Core may have a geographically decentralized developer base, but make no mistake it's only a few influential developers who get to decide what projects take priority, and no rational process to resolve conflicts, case in point BIP101 - which ironically lead to the discussion on how to better resolve conflicts that resulted in BU's Articles of Federation.

Ultimately users decide what bitcoin software they run. BU members want more diversity less centralized control, BU has one governing system for controversial changes to one implementation, Core has none. I hope to see more.
legendary
Activity: 3512
Merit: 4557
You guys ruined it all.  Bitcoin is now fucked and getting more fucked everyday.  I think the end in near.

Frustration leads to hate, which makes youre statement pathetic.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251


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There is no democratic way to kick something like this off so I am just going to be autocratic about it. I’m defining myself judge, jury and executioner (with the valuable input of those who have been interacting with me of course!) with the power to appoint the initial members. These initial members will then proceed to invite new members.




Firstly, the president was voted - not self-appointed. Secondly, his powers are limited and defined. And lastly, that is simply the forum post that kicked off the organization process - it is not an element of the bylaws.
are you a member?

When the start of the hierarchy is started from self appointment the BU articles of federation serve only to usurp core and to give the president dictatorship over bitcoin.  For what I can tell there is no rule that the same person can't rule forever...?

All of the articles secure this, and I have shown it.
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
BU was built on this you liar:

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There is no democratic way to kick something like this off so I am just going to be autocratic about it. I’m defining myself judge, jury and executioner (with the valuable input of those who have been interacting with me of course!) with the power to appoint the initial members. These initial members will then proceed to invite new members.
A direct quote from the self appointed president.

Firstly, the president was voted - not self-appointed. Secondly, his powers are limited and defined. And lastly, that is simply the forum post that kicked off the organization process - it is not an element of the bylaws.
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Seems better than the dictatorship you have been advocating for:

Quote from: BU Articles of Federation
Proposals are made, debated, and then resolved (voted on) and the Proposer and BU officers have the power to force this process to occur in a timely fashion.

Why are you trying to give the power of bitcoin away to an obvious and admitted dictatorship? Or did you not read the articles you were signing up to?

Haha. Your very quote belies how badly you are capable of misinterpreting clear language.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251


And beware the boogeyman centralization buzzwords with no science - Until someone can prove how moving from 300,000 transactions a day to 5,000,000 transactions a day over the coming years results in me having to upgrade my entry level internet and my PC at home they are just bluffing. When they say removing the transaction limit results in a data center controlled by government or some other centralized entity, they need to show the math and projected costs. 
No that isn't how science works.  If you want to change the status quo YOU need to provide the science.  That's how science works.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

with segwit it gets harder and harder to increase the transaction limit

this is eye opening.  and here i was thinking its a poison pill only because its really complicated and can't be undone.

wtf
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
core-fans seems to have no problems with high fees, why?
Because high fees don't take away the value of bitcoin as a digital gold.  And raising bitcoin's transaction per 2nd won't increase its value (just look at all the other amazing examples).
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
core-fans seems to have no problems with high fees, why?

they trust core

trust no one, we are talking about controlling money. Bitcoin has incentives, if anything trust the incentives, (i quoited the economic policy of the most influential Core Developers) miners do not have an incentive to limit transaction volume, nether do the users, core developers who are building layer 2 networks - actually do have a reason to limit bitcoin growth).

And beware the boogeyman centralization buzzwords with no science - Until someone can prove how moving from 300,000 transactions a day to 5,000,000 transactions a day over the coming years results in me having to upgrade my entry level internet and my PC at home they are just bluffing. When they say removing the transaction limit results in a data center controlled by government or some other centralized entity, they need to show the math and projected costs. 
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
core-fans seems to have no problems with high fees, why?

they trust core
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