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Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell - page 19. (Read 46270 times)

legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
Is Jihan Wu actually a large investor in Rootstock? Evidence that he has been very supportive of it is only a google search away, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is a large financial investor. I bring it up because the Segwit vs. BU debate would seem foggier given that (correct me if i am wrong) Rootstock will heavily rely on the underlying tech of Segwit. If that was the case why would Wu be for BU?

http://dcg.co/portfolio/#r
DCG (the blockstream cartel group that think anything not core is an alt) have invested in rootstock
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Is Jihan Wu actually a large investor in Rootstock? Evidence that he has been very supportive of it is only a google search away, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is a large financial investor. I bring it up because the Segwit vs. BU debate would seem foggier given that (correct me if i am wrong) Rootstock will heavily rely on the underlying tech of Segwit. If that was the case why would Wu be for BU?
its not like BU isn't planning a TX_ID fix

the only thing core is promising, that BU isn't, is totally control over blocksize ( and the 75% sig discount thing ) oh and bug free code  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

snip

not fully following you.  i thought the whole advantage to LN was that you can do many more things offchain and just settle once, so why would it cost more?

lets say my channel with Alice is open for a month and a bunch of people use my channel, i would get their small fee but doesnt it cost me exactly the same when i close it?
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
Is Jihan Wu actually a large investor in Rootstock? Evidence that he has been very supportive of it is only a google search away, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is a large financial investor. I bring it up because the Segwit vs. BU debate would seem foggier given that (correct me if i am wrong) Rootstock will heavily rely on the underlying tech of Segwit. If that was the case why would Wu be for BU?
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
Frankie, aside from the current "we're not raising the 1mb" stuff, what is concerning me about LN is this:

-- Bitcoin already provides everything LN needs (correct me if i'm wrong)
-- In theory, the "everyone can connect to everyone else" would be possible, but...
-- [1]companies like Blockstream and others who are building implementations of Lightening will likely not build it that way as it would be much simpler
   for them to build a channel between themselves and each customer (hub and spoke model)
-- this creates centralization and a point of regulation

so that is concern #1.

Concern #2 is:  What happens when the next generation of coders comes along in 5 years and just builds an open source implementation of lightening
that actually DOES connect everyone to everyone else with smart lookups to find pathways to your friend and smart clients that can use permissioned
yet trustless cooperation as described in the LN paper... because you know that's coming next right?  ...so what are Blockstream and the pioneers
trying to sneak in now to make sure they stay in business in 5,10, 20 years?  I don't even know what I don't know... but I know if I was them I
would be thinking the same thing...and you've maybe hinted at some concerns.

concern#1 --[1].. hint: LN DNS seed.
located on a blockstream server containing IP's of hubs/spokes that blockstream can prioritise/handpick

concern #2
say we have
alice<>bob<>chuck<>dave
and say a 'ln payment' was just 1sat (lowest allowable amount)

for alice to pay dave. alice has to pay bob and chuck too. so it costs alice 3sats to pay dave
decentralised hop(spoke) models cost more than hub
making the whitepaper utopian dream of cheap hop(spoke) model costly because you got to pay each peer on the route.
many naive people think they will get a free sat per payment just by being on the route. and thats where all the excitement is coming from.. people thinking they finally get paid to be a node..

however knowing hop(spoke) model costs fee*hops-1. can end up being alot compared to hubs. so naturally. spenders would find the cheapest method.. leading to hubs

now imagine the hub model
               bob
                ^
                v
alice <> blockstream <> dave
                ^
                v
              chuck

now alice can pay anyone for 1 sat and blockstream are the only ones that get the fee.
blockstream can go one step further by 'pretending' to be more decentralised by making it 'appear' like a hop/spoke model

alice <> BSemployee <>blockstream <> BSemployee <> dave

now alice is back to paying 3sat and being told her payment needed to loop through 3 nodes.. but guess who owns the nodes..
this is a hub emulating a hop/spoke model.. similar to running a sybil / pool of nodes to take advantage of getting more fee's.

all because of the LN DNS seed being in the hands of blockstream

..
as for concern 2 about someone else coming in in 5..10 years with a better plan with a proper open LN DNS seed. forget it
blockstream will REKT campaign it and suggest that the DNS seed of anything not blockstream invented is prioritised in favour of the opposition (turning their own trick to sound like only the opposition are doing it even if the opposition are not. as seen already with current blockstream plans)
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Frankie, aside from the current "we're not raising the 1mb" stuff, what is concerning me about LN is this:

-- Bitcoin already provides everything LN needs (correct me if i'm wrong)
-- In theory, the "everyone can connect to everyone else" would be possible, but...
-- companies like Blockstream and others who are building implementations of Lightening will likely not build it that way as it would be much simpler
   for them to build a channel between themselves and each customer (hub and spoke model)
-- this creates centralization and a point of regulation

so that is concern #1.

Concern #2 is:  What happens when the next generation of coders comes along in 5 years and just builds an open source implementation of lightening
that actually DOES connect everyone to everyone else with smart lookups to find pathways to your friend and smart clients that can use permissioned
yet trustless cooperation as described in the LN paper... because you know that's coming next right?  ...so what are Blockstream and the pioneers
trying to sneak in now to make sure they stay in business in 5,10, 20 years?  I don't even know what I don't know... but I know if I was them I
would be thinking the same thing...and you've maybe hinted at some concerns.


legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
I don't know how you could get "There is not really a technical issue" from what I wrote.  I think you just made that up in your head.

For the sake of clarity, I think you and many others like you chose to jump for the low-hanging fruit (bigger blocks) that pretends to be a scaling solution for Bitcoin, just because it is quick and dirty, and stands to potentially net a quick return as (stupid) people are fooled into believing the scaling issue is solved.

There is another solution (for those who believe there is a problem) that is clearly technically superior, and which is a lot more likely to allow Bitcoin to remain decentralized and retain its core value proposition.  The only way anyone can ignore that is if they just don't care.

I am sure you will disagree with the points I make above, but the technical discussion of this stuff has been beat to death here, and if you don't agree with me by now, I'm sure you never will.  I don't expect that you will stop your constant harangue against Blockstream and Core and all the evil you perceive in them.  But I hope you will at least take a second to consider what your motivations really are.

calling segwit a scaling solution.. lol
1. its a single step .. not a scale. you cant resegwit a segwit
2. its not a fix/solution. even if activated it then requires people to be in a tier network and then move funds to new keypairs..
3. the moving of funds is a half promise gesture which wont meet the promises/expectations because not everyone will move funds to disarm themselves.
4. segwit is just about letting in more "soft" changes without consensus.. in technical terms this is called opening a backdoor into bitcoin

if you think LN is a scaling solution then get your calculator out.
1. it take 3tx to open/close a channel so not everyone will see the benefits of it.
2. not everyone uses bitcoin daily. LN has a niche for things like faucets. but most are already using xapo offchain already. so not much change
3. neither LN or segwit stops spamming. by keeping the 1mb base limit nothing has made it harder for spammers.
4. if spammers stick with native keys, it limits how many segwit tx's can get in and how many LN channels are used.

read the code next time not the reddit utopian 30 second elevator sales pitch thats full of holes.
oh. i havnt even told you all the new attack vectors segwit and LN open. but ill leave that for a different topic
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


I don't know how you could get "There is not really a technical issue" from what I wrote.  I think you just made that up in your head.

For the sake of clarity, I think you and many others like you chose to jump for the low-hanging fruit (bigger blocks) that pretends to be a scaling solution for Bitcoin, just because it is quick and dirty, and stands to potentially net a quick return as (stupid) people are fooled into believing the scaling issue is solved.

There is another solution (for those who believe there is a problem) that is clearly technically superior, and which is a lot more likely to allow Bitcoin to remain decentralized and retain its core value proposition.  The only way anyone can ignore that is if they just don't care.

I am sure you will disagree with the points I make above, but the technical discussion of this stuff has been beat to death here, and if you don't agree with me by now, I'm sure you never will.  I don't expect that you will stop your constant harangue against Blockstream and Core and all the evil you perceive in them.  But I hope you will at least take a second to consider what your motivations really are.



if you're referring to LN, i'm all for it, its very exciting technology...but I see no reason we can't have bigger blocks now (actually 2 years ago) and LN later.  My beef with BSCore is that they seem to be standing in the way of the 'bigger blocks now' part.   Whether that is out of sheer stubborness, or selfishness, or some grandmaster moves that are far ahead of us, and good for all of us, well that's up to you to judge and decide for yourself.  My motivations aren't really that interesting.  Mostly intellectual stimulation. I believe in what I say but I don't believe I have any real impact.  Maybe I will change a few minds here or there and maybe just maybe tip the scales in the group consciousness toward what I believe is the better way to go.  Hope I answered your question.



  

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265


Lol, wait honey somebody is wrong on the Internet and I can't sleep.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
the small blocker's argument about node centraliztion is invalid!

first of all node count is meaningless when sybil attack is so goddamn CHEAP!
second,  sybil attack is so goddamn CHEAP! sybil attack is so goddamn CHEAP! sybil attack is so goddamn CHEAP!
repeat that a few dozen times
and then tell me 1MB is to big.

sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
I hate the fact that my investment in Bitcoin appears to be getting fucked.

I think you have here revealed the 'core' of your outrage...  My impression is that most (all?) of the members of the 'bigger blocks now, at any cost' crowd are people who ultimately view Bitcoin as their get-rich-quick scheme, and have no real concern at all for the long-term technological success of Bitcoin.

That's fine by me - I have nothing against people striving to promote their own enlightened self-interest - but you should at least be honest about it and quit pretending that your concerns are technical ones.


You sure talk a lot of shit for someone who knows next to nothing about the actual problem, if you do, you wouldn't use 'my impression', you would use actual numbers and basic math.



I haven't talked ANY shit at all, just expressed an opinion.  If you don't like my opinion, well, fuck you.  You don't have to like it.

I expressed my impression of people's motivations.  How, pray tell, can I mathematically represent those motivations?

I have no intention of re-arguing the technical arguments that have been already argued to death on this forum and elsewhere.  I will just say that if you think you are actually smarter than people whose work formed the foundation of Bitcoin, like Nick Szabo and Adam Back then you are just an idiot.



In all fairness though, your comment did seem to imply that there's not really a technically issue ("blocks aren't really full, bigblockers are just greedy").  Is this not what you intended to say?



I don't know how you could get "There is not really a technical issue" from what I wrote.  I think you just made that up in your head.

For the sake of clarity, I think you and many others like you chose to jump for the low-hanging fruit (bigger blocks) that pretends to be a scaling solution for Bitcoin, just because it is quick and dirty, and stands to potentially net a quick return as (stupid) people are fooled into believing the scaling issue is solved.

There is another solution (for those who believe there is a problem) that is clearly technically superior, and which is a lot more likely to allow Bitcoin to remain decentralized and retain its core value proposition.  The only way anyone can ignore that is if they just don't care.

I am sure you will disagree with the points I make above, but the technical discussion of this stuff has been beat to death here, and if you don't agree with me by now, I'm sure you never will.  I don't expect that you will stop your constant harangue against Blockstream and Core and all the evil you perceive in them.  But I hope you will at least take a second to consider what your motivations really are.



are all technically superior solutions orders of magnitude more complex then the dumb quick fix?
legendary
Activity: 1066
Merit: 1098
I hate the fact that my investment in Bitcoin appears to be getting fucked.

I think you have here revealed the 'core' of your outrage...  My impression is that most (all?) of the members of the 'bigger blocks now, at any cost' crowd are people who ultimately view Bitcoin as their get-rich-quick scheme, and have no real concern at all for the long-term technological success of Bitcoin.

That's fine by me - I have nothing against people striving to promote their own enlightened self-interest - but you should at least be honest about it and quit pretending that your concerns are technical ones.


You sure talk a lot of shit for someone who knows next to nothing about the actual problem, if you do, you wouldn't use 'my impression', you would use actual numbers and basic math.



I haven't talked ANY shit at all, just expressed an opinion.  If you don't like my opinion, well, fuck you.  You don't have to like it.

I expressed my impression of people's motivations.  How, pray tell, can I mathematically represent those motivations?

I have no intention of re-arguing the technical arguments that have been already argued to death on this forum and elsewhere.  I will just say that if you think you are actually smarter than people whose work formed the foundation of Bitcoin, like Nick Szabo and Adam Back then you are just an idiot.



In all fairness though, your comment did seem to imply that there's not really a technically issue ("blocks aren't really full, bigblockers are just greedy").  Is this not what you intended to say?



I don't know how you could get "There is not really a technical issue" from what I wrote.  I think you just made that up in your head.

For the sake of clarity, I think you and many others like you chose to jump for the low-hanging fruit (bigger blocks) that pretends to be a scaling solution for Bitcoin, just because it is quick and dirty, and stands to potentially net a quick return as (stupid) people are fooled into believing the scaling issue is solved.

There is another solution (for those who believe there is a problem) that is clearly technically superior, and which is a lot more likely to allow Bitcoin to remain decentralized and retain its core value proposition.  The only way anyone can ignore that is if they just don't care.

I am sure you will disagree with the points I make above, but the technical discussion of this stuff has been beat to death here, and if you don't agree with me by now, I'm sure you never will.  I don't expect that you will stop your constant harangue against Blockstream and Core and all the evil you perceive in them.  But I hope you will at least take a second to consider what your motivations really are.

sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

Not for me... This makes it really simple to explain to other people
you are implying something... i can feel it and i don't like it Grin
I'm just suggesting you might not want to listen to the 10 times dumb version could you might end up thinking and supporting something very very very stupid. Grin
full member
Activity: 125
Merit: 100
Canadian Miner Passing Through~~

Now this was the explanation i was looking for. Thanks
Really?  This is the one he said he dumbed down times 10 ;p  Its good for you though?

Not for me... This makes it really simple to explain to other people
you are implying something... i can feel it and i don't like it Grin
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251

Now this was the explanation i was looking for. Thanks
Really?  This is the one he said he dumbed down times 10 ;p  Its good for you though?
full member
Activity: 125
Merit: 100
Canadian Miner Passing Through~~
I hate the fact that my investment in Bitcoin appears to be getting fucked.

I think you have here revealed the 'core' of your outrage...  My impression is that most (all?) of the members of the 'bigger blocks now, at any cost' crowd are people who ultimately view Bitcoin as their get-rich-quick scheme, and have no real concern at all for the long-term technological success of Bitcoin.

That's fine by me - I have nothing against people striving to promote their own enlightened self-interest - but you should at least be honest about it and quit pretending that your concerns are technical ones.


You sure talk a lot of shit for someone who knows next to nothing about the actual problem, if you do, you wouldn't use 'my impression', you would use actual numbers and basic math.

Here is the technical details on why Blockstream/Core is a bunch of lying fucks, I just fact slapped another shill in another thread, so I'll just copy it here (already translated to layman terms):

The 1MB limit IS causing the spam problem, and Blockstream/Core continue to do nothing about it.

Today Bitcoin tx traffic have already reached 1MB every 10mins, since the blocksize limit is also 1MB and you only get 1 block every 10mins on average, spammers can now easily flood the mempool by generating a small amount of tx.

Once the mempool is flooded, tx takes longer to process, users get impatient, they pay more fees, fees go up, miners process higher fee tx first, all the minimum fee spam stay stuck at the bottom of the mempool, they timeout and get deleted before being processed by miners.

If spammers don't set a minimum fee in their spam, the spam will be dropped by nodes before reaching the mempool, but spammer only pay the fee when the tx is actually processed by miners.

So, once the mempool is full and the fee is high, spammer's spam never get processed, spammer can continue to flood the mempool for days paying zero fee.

Blockstream refused to increase the blocksize, so we get huge 50000tx mempool backlog today, because spammers don't have to pay their fees.

If they increase the blocksize, then for every 1MB blocksize increase, we can fit another 2000 tx per block, at 4MB we can fit 8000tx per block.

If normal traffic is 1M and the limit is 4M, spammer have to pay a very high combined min fee to flood a block (min fee x 8000 per block), then, if they continue to spam, any mishap, such as miners get lucky and mine a few blocks quickly within 10 minutes, 'eating' all the spam, then spammers have to pay the fee for almost the entire 4MB spam block.

At 4MB, it'll be too costly for spammers to spam, until normal traffic reaches 4MB and they can flood without paying fee again.

If we increase the blocksize from 1MB to 2MB or 4MB now, it will give room for Bitcoin to grow as well as reduce spam.

This truth is so simple that's why Blockstream/Core have to create all kinds of red herrings/bullshit excuses/censorships/trolls to justify keeping the blocksize at 1MB. If they stop distracting you from the actual and simple problem for just 1 second, you'll immediately find out they've been lying their asses off for years.

The 1MB limit was added in 2010 because tx fee was 0 at the time, the network was young and was growing slowly, average block size was less than 1k, and Satoshi didn't want to see the blockchain full of 32MB blocks filled with 0 fee spam.

You keep hearing all these fuck face morons talking about how SW/LN will save the day, or that we can't keep increasing the blocksize forever, but at this moment Bitcoin isn't even popular enough for SW/LN, the safety limit is above 4MB, we shouldn't even talk about side chains until we have enough tx to fill 4MB blocks every 10 minutes, or 13tx/sec (we are only at 3tx/sec at the moment).

We are having a tx jam right now, so by not increasing the blocksize limit, Blockstream/Core either have absolutely no idea what they're doing, or they're just pricks blatantly lying their asses off.


Now this was the explanation i was looking for. Thanks
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
Judging from this wall of:
"traincarswreck - This user is currently ignored."

I am going to assume he is trying to get my attention like a little puppy again.
I don't think he even knows he've been ignored by most people a long time ago.
The problem with ignoring and blocking out people that point out you are wrong is you end up a whinny idiot that is frustrated because you don't understand anything. You start to you think your opinion is right because you keep high-fiving yourself and you end up spending your time on a forum telling nobody that is listening how a multi-billion dollar software project, you don't have a hope of understanding, should be run.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I didn't make a comeback, I underlined your ignorance for others to see.  Arguing with idiots just serves to work up the idiots and accomplishes nothing, since idiots are, by definition, ineducable - so I will just walk away from you now.  Do feel free to continue ranting though.

Ok you're getting into a loop here, so I'll keep it real simple, I am going to assume you have no ability to prove me wrong, because you don't actually know how Bitcoin works, but you want to keep telling me you're hurt and you hate me for calling you out.

Do you want a hug or what?

I mean I don't know what you expected, if I walk in to a room full of people and start making baseless accusation to 'most people', on a subject I know nothing about, I expect to get bitchslapped, and when I do, I'd actually feel embarrassed and apologize for being that stupid, instead of blaming other people for not respecting my stupidity.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1026
m.       
   
Smart people can be evil too, and Adam Back is demonstrably evil. I don't care if he's smart or not.   
 

its really not fair that Greg's been getting all the attention here in this thread  Cheesy  Glad you brought this up.

Can you explain more?
Don't forget vain.  Adam Back is vain too.  He thinks his HashCash is more or less Bitcoin.  Whadda fucker.  These Blockstream pieces of garbage have to be stopped. 
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Judging from this wall of:
"traincarswreck - This user is currently ignored."

I am going to assume he is trying to get my attention like a little puppy again.
I don't think he even knows he've been ignored by most people a long time ago.
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